Quite a day…

I hope that everyone has had or will get the chance to watch and read all the coverage from today’s press conference. Having just spent the last five hours alongside Joe Torre, I think the word that I’d use for the way he’s handled himself today is "class." For three and a half hours straight, he took the time to look people in the eye, give insightful answers to their questions and try to endear himself to you, the fans. And I think that he – as well as all of us here -  realize that the best way to do that is with winning.

I’m trying to compose some thoughts about the day and the events of the past week, but to be honest, my head is somewhat spinning from a really wild day. It’s still a little weird that I attended Joe Torre Baseball Camp in the Valley as a kid and now he’s managing the Dodgers.

But the truth is, there were a lot of us Dodger employees today who were here by 6 or 7 a.m. to make sure everything went off without a hitch and I’m happy to say that it did. Everyone from the operations staff to the electricians, PR department and VPs who take great pride in what goes on around here and today I feel proud of what was accomplished and the direction we’re headed.

One more note – yesterday was the start of the annual Fantasy Camp at Dodgertown. Gary Smith, a regular visitor to Inside the Dodgers, has started a blog where you can check out a photo gallery and other highlights from Vero Beach, so be sure to visit all week long.

180 Comments

Joe Torre was full of more energy than I expected after all those years in NY. Very impressive. Let’s hope it translates to wins on the field.

Gonzo can go rot on someone else’s team for all I care.

Trade Juan Pierre!

Sign Torii Hunter!

The best thing about Torre is that now Ned can’t wear his Giants ring anymore. If he does Joe will call him in his office and say, we don’t celebrate 2nd place..

lol

i dont know if anyone saw this but on ESPN Steve Phillips laid out his plan for the Dodgers…it included:
Moving Pierre to left.

Signing Andruw Jones

Signing A-Rod

Trading enough prospects to “knock the socks off” of the Twins for Johan Santana.

I must say…im for once glad Ned Colletti is our GM. He isn’t that dumb.

Torre looks good in Dodger Blue but then again who doesn’t.

Ok A-ROD is next !

screw A-Rod.

Pettite just opted out of his contract with the Yankees and will file for free agency.

Pettite is next im assuming.

Third base isn’t as big of a black hole as Center Field. Juan Pierre instantly makes us a non contender. Get rid of him and sign Jones. Give LaRoche the job. Thats the only way we can get better.

A-Rod would be nice but Third base isn’t our biggest hole.

Max, i think you are Juan Pierre Fanatic– in the negative sense obviously… You cant quite the pipe dream of having Pierre gone– i think every one wishes it, but i love how you sneak it into every post.
I just need to point out that he has a WS ring, so its hard to say he makes us D.O.A…. Just saying… From the beginning I’ve said id be more than willing to trade him and pay 6 mil/yr, but its never going to happen.. never…

Third base is definately our biggest hole.

quit*

yeah, theres a reason why steve phillips is no longer a GM.

I don’t agree that 3rd base is as big a whole as CF. CF just happens to be clogged by a useless expensive player. I’m happy going into the season with LaRoche and Nomar, hopefully more LaRoche than Nomar. I’d want A-Rod just cuz of the player he is, and the interest he’d bring to the dodgers nationally, but I’m starting to soften off from my “Sign A-Rod or Bust” stance. I think signing an SP and an OF would be the best way to go. This team is good enough to win by adding just one more arm in the rotation.

yea… steve phillips wants to spend over 450 million in free agents and trade our young cheap talented kids. great plan stevey.

Signing an OF would be great, but it doesnt do anything about Pierre. Its not our biggest hole because we are more or less stuck with him, but you know what you are going to get. Third Base is a complete question mark, and its a position that is usually power hitter. Pierre can get away with his skills as a center fielder… The OF talent is great, except A. Jones, but signing one and not getting rid of Pierre is pointless. An OF of Ethier Pierre and Kemp is only marginally worse, but a lot more expensive if you take out Ethier and put in Rowand/Hunter/Jones. If we could not have Pierre it would be a no brainer– Ned really screwed up. Humans will be humans..

A-Rod is way too bad of a human being to be a “or bust” player… Thats my opinion.

What SP would you sign/go after?

I’d be more then happy to go into the season with LaRoche as our starting third baseman.

I’d me more then unhappy going into the season with Pierre in the outfield. Especially if he’s in left field and Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier are playing outfield for a different team.

We’d be a better team with LaRoche at third and Ethier, Jones and Kemp in the outfield then having A-Rod at third and Ethier, Pierre and Kemp in the outfield.

Is it A-Rod or Scott Boras who is greedy? I hope no one signs him.

Im not sure pierre can “get away” with his skills. What skills? Anyways…

I would try to resign Wolf to an incentive deal. He’s one of the few FA agent guys that would be willing to take a pay cut. Everyone else will be looking to get paid and the trade market for guys like Blanton, Garland, etc. …the price will be too steep. What are we expecting out of Schmidt/Loaiza etc? Probably nothing. Which means we would need another pitcher even if Wolf resigned. I suppose we could try to dump Loaiza somewhere. Will we get any contribution from the minors? Its quite a puzzle. I fully expect Ned to screw it up. Again I have to say pierre in LF is an absolute disgrace. Just get rid of him. We are not serious about winning until we do.

Pierre is a liability wherever he plays. That was known before Ned signed him. Ned really screwed up. I would have fired him the minute he signed Pierre or at least vetoed the deal. It was truly horrendous and it could go down as the worst free agent signing in Dodgers history.

As for pitching there really isn’t much out there. I’d offer Wolf a deal and maybe Josh Fogg but thats about it. Maybe Pettite if he’s willing to listen because of Torre.

Pierre if left field would make him the worst offensive Left Fielder in Dodger history. Maybe even baseball history.

Sp… Curt Shilling (but there are age and possible injury issues?) and possibly Andy Pettite. I don’t like the idea of trading youngsters for a year of Santana. Maybe a Carlos Silva? He had a pretty good year last year, slightly above 4 era in the AL.

Penny, Lowe, Bills, Pettitte/Curt, Wolf/Schmidt/Loaiza. Kershaw, Elbert, McDonald later in the year if the others don’t pan out at all. You can never have too many pitchers.

3B is not a hole just because Andy LaRoche is yet to establish himself there. If we don’t get A-Rod, he should be given every shot to prove himself. As it is, Pierre is our biggest hole whether he plays in LF or CF. He’s a known commodity, but not a good one.

SChilling would be a good fit I think. I wouldn’t mind rolling into the 2008 season with a rotation of:

Penny

Lowe

Schilling

Billingsley

Schmidt/Loaiza/Kershaw/Wolf/McDonald/Elbert

Remember, remember the 5th of November.

ahhh… awesome movie… i wanna go to blockbuster and watch it now.

No proven third baseman vs. mediocre CF– its really 6 or one half dozen, but i call having no proven player a hole… I too would rather have that outfield situation over A-Rod Max, but it simply isnt going to happen. However, Rowand or Hunter over Jones every day of the week.

Definately offer Wolf an incentive contract. I’d have no problem going after Pettite, Schilling and injuries i do not like. Pettite was a **** work horse this year though, and considering he went from NL to AL is impressive. I think Schmidt is going to give us more than we are anticipating…

Twas a good movie… Speed Racer is going to be awesome. Max, dont blow up Neds house to try and make a statement…

Actually i wasn’t think of the movie. I was thinking move of this…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_po/paul_fundraising

i wasn’t thinking of the movie. I was thinking more of this*

wow really bad with the typing today. I’m trying to finish a paper for a class tomorrow so i’ve been typing all day.

I won’t blow up Ned’s house…I’d just stake a sign in his yard that says “Get Rid Of Pierre!”

Yea, i heard abbout that Ron Paul gimick… Pretty interesting guy– not your typical flavor or Republican these days. No way they raised 2.7 mil in one day, but by the time one can check they’ll either be out of it or have so much momentum it wont matter– my bet is on the former…
Obama ’08

Go Dodgers.

flavor of*

i hate the thought of Hilary Clinton being the Dem candidate. Not that I’m against the thought of a woman in the White House, its more that I just don’t think America would vote her in. It opens the door for the republicans to sneak in again.

Hiliary Clinton and Barack Obama want to stay in Iraq…Ron Paul doesn’t.

Actually ewk216 he raised well over 3.5 million in one day…seems that this “gimmick” is working.

oh and forget about Schilling being a Dodger…he’s about to resign with the red sox.

My guess would be that the Dodgers sign Jones and Pettite and let A-Rod go somewhere else. I think the thought might be that Bowa and Mattingly would improve LaRoche enough to be ready for the bigs out of spring training. Kemp or Either would then be traded and DY would become the 4th outfielder. I have no clue as to what will really happen but I do think Jones will wear Dodger blue next year.

Max, he raised 5 mil in the third quarter– no way he raised 3.5 in one day. And not to get too into politics on the Dodger blog, but no one wants to stay in Iraq- its a matter of necessity. To pull out abruptly would be incredibly irresponsible. Ron Paul can say the things that he does only bc he is a fringe candidate– if he were a front runner i guarantee he’d sounds more politicized…

Ok, back to sports– I cant for the life me understand why people are advocating signing Jones when Hunter and Rowand are also both FA… Jones is one of the ‘veteran past prime’ players that no one on this blog wants anymore, while rowand and Hunter are in their peak.. Thats not the real reason though– Jones skills have simply deteriorated too much to be worth 20 mil a year.

By the numbers for last year and Career HR’s:

Jones:

30 yrs old

.222 BA

26 HR

94 RBI

138 K

70 BB

368 Career HR’s

Rowand

30 yrs old

.309 BA

27 HR

89 RBI

119 K

47 BB

93 Career HR’s

Hunter

32 yrs old

.287 BA

28 HR

107 RBI

101 K

40 BB

192 Career HR’s

Jones had a bad year and still produced as much as the other 2. Not to mention that Turner Field isn’t exactly a launching pad like Citizen Bank Park is.

Take it from somebody who watches him nearly everyday. He’s still the best defensive CF in the game.

So give me Jones over the other 2.

Fair enough– crazy Jones is only 30. He’s been in the league for quite some time now… He looks older than 30. It’s the price he is asking that turns me off. I mean, how do you do so poorly in a walk year?
O well, i really highly highly doubt we get any of them…. I would say though that HR’s are less imp. to the Dodgers than OBP and Slugging…

ewk216, he actually raised more then 4 million in one day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/us/politics/06paul.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I think we’ve got enough guys to get on base. We need somebody that can hit the ball out of the park. That’s just my take.

“I would say though that HR’s are less imp. to the Dodgers than OBP and Slugging…”

sarcasm right? the Dodgers obviously don’t care about OBP and slugging when they have Juan Pierre in the lineup and when they let Nomar stink up Dodger stadium for months.

Yes Max, according to the Ron Paul campaign..

These things arent confirmed until the FEC spending and fundraising reports come out at the end of each fiscal quarter. I’ll believe it when it shows up on that… Until then, its just unsubstantiated spin… Great press though– you know the NYTimes loves running that article to try and throw a wrench in the Republican race…

The same can be said for HR’s…

I’m not saying that it is fact they care more about Slg and OBP than HR– i’m just saying that ideally they should…

Ewk, I think you severely underestimate the will of people that care about something very much and are eager and open minded enough for real change.

A rhino with a baseball glove super glued to his horn would be more productive then Juan Pierre in left field.

Jones should be our first and only reasonable choice. We have to face the fact that A-Rod is not coming. In order for us to be a contender next year Juan Pierre has to be gone.

Furcal
Martin

Loney

Jones

Kent

Kemp

LaRoche

Ethier

would be our best lineup we could possibly have on the field next year.

As thrilled as I am to have Torre, i felt a little sad that he was wearing number six.
That will always be a sacred number in my book for a Dodger uniform. Weather Garvey is in the HOF or not.

Congrats to all us Dodgers fans for what looks to be a potentially optimistic 2008.

Welcome Joe!

Jones’ down year couldn’t have happened at a better time. He has less leverage then he should in talks even with Satan, i mean Scott Boras has his agent.

The Dodgers could concievable offer Jones a 3 year deal but increase the annual pay. This is what i like about Ned. He is willing to pay more annually for less of a commitment.

This is where I think the Dodgers have the advantage or at least could. If other teams approach Jones with 5 year or 6 year deals worth only 15 million a year and the Dodgers offer him a 3 year 60 million – 65 million dollar deal he’d probably take the 3 year deal. It would still allowing him to be a free agent in his prime when he could conceivable get paid more. His bad year this year almost guarantees he probably won’t get an option to opt out of any extended contract, something that Boras loves, If the Dodgers offered him a 3 year deal while overpaying him annually they could land him and it would be a smart move too.

still allow*

I meant to say…

Instead of him getting a 6 year deal with an option after the third year, which he probably won’t get the option to opt out because of his down year, a 3 year deal with a high annual salary would be very appealing to Jones and Boras especially if Jones isn’t guaranteed an opt out in any of his other contract talks with other teams.

I think he’ll be looking for a 5-7 year deal in the price range of 18-20 million per. He’s looking for a deal in the neighborhood of what Vernon Wells got last year when Toronto well overpaid him. What he will eventually sign for is up in the air. But I think he’ll land in LA because they have the money and his best friend (Furcal).

Im sure he’s looking for a deal like that but he probably won’t. For his down year this year he’ll have to sacrifice annual salary for years of commitment. If the Dodgers over pay him annually, compared to his other offers, and make the commitment short I think he’d go where the most money annually would be, I know i would.

I’d probably offer Jones a 3 years 68 million dollar deal. Thats almost 23 million annual.

If we could land Jones in a 3 year deal it would be brilliant, but its not going to happen. One down year does not completely alter a players value, especially in hte maniacle brain of Boras. No way he takes a three year deal. He is going to get 20 mil a year for 7 years…. Max, i think you severely underestimate the void of impact bats and the market for them. :)

w0w… this is crazy…

i want Jp gone too… but try to accept that its not going to happen… at least for another season, i guess!

we have a big hole at 3B!

for me CF is not going to be that big of a problem!

i think Torre is smart enough to let Young play 2 games a week in place of JP!

so in that way we have an OF of Young(LF) Kemp(CF) Ethier(RF)…

we only need JP coz of his speed… and it wont hurt us to sit him for at least 2 games a week coz we still have Furcal!

that can happen if Torre is willing to break the consecutive games of JP!

if they can sign ARod, just sign him! he will make this team a championship team the moment he sign the contract!

Jones/Hunter/rowand will give us an upgrade on the defense and offense but those 3 wont give us a ring that we all wanted!

i thought you guys want the organization to spend money to get a superstar that can give us a ring? there is ARod and he is expensive but he can certainly give us that chance to get that ring!

I’d probably throw this on the table:

3 year $52.5 million with incentives that could make it $20 million per.

Then I’d add a club option for the 4th year at about $19 million with incentives. And a $21 million player option for the 5th year.

I like the logic about him then being able to still get another good contract with a three year deal, but players want long term stability, and he is certainly good enough to get it.

Cameron, the guy is a legit perenail all-star, batting champ and gold glove CF– no way he lowers himself to that contract– club option? incentives?? come on… Boras wouldnt allow him to take that contract..

and ultimately jan is right– JP isnt going anywhere… I’d still put him in left, sign one of the big three, LaRoche at third, and trade Ethier and parts for a good pitcher, but i doubt that happens..

That will only max out at a little more that $100 million if he stays the whole 5 years and reaches his incentives. What do you think max.

If Andruw really wants something then he’ll do it himself and forget what BorA$$ says. That’s what he did when he resigned with Atlanta the last time.

Yes, before he was a Boras client if i remember correctly…

Vernon Wells, who is a much lesser player than Jones, got 120 mil.. no way is Jones taking an INCENTIVE based contract that would top out at 100 in a perfect world situation..

No BorA$$ was his client when he did that deal.

I’ll take you word on that then… Moot point though– good conversation fodder, but not going to happen unless we ditch JP, which would be amazing….

Furcal

Ethier

Loney

Jones

Kemp

Martin

Kent

LaRoche

Even without the incentives that would still put Jones making more than Wells plus he would have a chance to opt out of his final year when he’ll still only be 34 years old. The incentives would put him well over Wells’ annually salary which is only $17.14 million.

A pretty, pretty good pipe dream…

I think he might take that deal because that gives him the opportunity to really cash in in 4-5 years when salaries will be higher than they are now.

We have a proven MLB player signed for 10 million next season who plays 3b. Nomar. You guys think that McCourt will let him spend 40 million for 3b next season? In addition our top posistion prospect and top power prospect is a 3b.

A-rod has not given anyone a ring they wanted Jan. No team has become a championship team when signing him, that’s a fact. Even the Yankees. Of course I would take him and if so, then Package LaRoache for pitching.

I heard an interview with Brad Penny last night and he said all this clubhouse stuff was a bunch of BS…we simply didnt have enough to win. He said we had no power bat in the middle of the order and guys just didnt get the job done.

Max and I are in a contest to see who can’t stand Juan Pierre (the player, the person seems like a great guy) the most. I agree though bringing in any OF to NOT displace PIERRE is a waste.

If LaRoche adapts as expected, he’ll fill the third-base void, but there’s no helping things in center unless the club makes Juan Pierre go away and finds an upgrade. To that end, Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter or even the suspended Mike Cameron makes sense. Any of the three would constitute both an offensive and defensive improvement over Pierre.

Yea, no, its a nice idea for sure. i just dont see it happening. Wells has security though, 7 year deal, which players like in this league, w/ guaranteed contracts and such… At this point, i dont have faith that we are smart enough to make that offer and i definately dont have faith that Boras is smart enough to accept it.

I think the Jones contract offer falls somewhere in between. Wells’ contract expires when he is 34 years old and Jones will be turning 31 next season. I think a 4 year deal worth just under 80 mill. is what it’s going to take, he’ll be 35 when the contract ends. I think this down year really hurt him in terms of a player’s option on the contract so we may dodge a bullet with that one but it will still take about 4 yrs/80 million IMO.

A few thoughts I’ve had the past few days:

1) I really, really hope Ned is not authorized to make a single trade. GM’s around the league are salivating at the opportunity to swindle Ned into handing them one or several of our top young Kids. I am %100 convinced that any trade involving Kemp, LaRoche, Kershaw, Loney, Billz, or Broxton will be a disaster for the Dodgers. It’s scary to contemplate what Ned might do if he is giving full authority to ship these guys out.

2) As should have been done last year, we should probably stay out of the FA market. Although I think a Jones, Hunter, or Rowand singing would make sense, I once again fear that Ned will do something stupid (like signing Lowell) if he’s allowed to freely spend. In a related note, I have to mention how striking the distinction is between maybe the best GM in the majors (Theo) and maybe the worst GM in baseball (Ned). Whereas Ned is itching to give up on a potential stud like LaRoche in favor of an “established, proven, winner” like Lowell, Theo is reluctant to re-sign the reigning World Series MVP because he correctly understands that Lowell is a player who is very close to past his prime whose contract demands will go far beyond his real worth. Instead, Theo is trying to figure out how he can get his hands on a guy like LaRoche. It really boggles my mind.

3) I like the Torre signing for a few reasons. First, I think its brought a burst of energy to both the franchise and its players. Second, it will work to attract free agents (although I hope not the wrong ones). Finally, I think having quality coaches like Mattingly and Bowa on the staff will do a lot to aid in the development of the kids.

4) Next year will definitely be interesting. I’m just hoping we can make it through this offseason unscathed.

Im not saying I want to trade him, but what do you guys think of of LaRoche for Jon Lester? The Sawks have always liked him apparently and we get another young arm. That is if we fill the 3b void elsewhere.

Get rid of pierre at all costs, of course I agree with. Honestly I don’t see a committment to winning until this is done.

I don’t think the Sox will part ways with Lester. Last year was pretty funny to me because the Sox picked Lester instead of Broxton and last winter tried to trade for Broxton. Guess the Sox missed out on that one. However I do think Lester will be a good pitcher in a few years.

i really like LaRoche…
but i want him to play 2B if ARod signs here…

you guys wants JP gone but for me… the 3rd person who needs to go after gonzo and grady is Kent… LOL

i hate the guy! yeah he got some game but i don’t understand you guys… if u don’t want ARod coz he has some curse that he brings on every team, why would u want Kent to stay?

How can anyone say that our biggest hole is not 3rd base? Since Beltre left we havent had anyone who can play there. Why would you start Laroche when we already have enough young guys starting. We need a power hitting 3rd basemen. Pierre is not our biggest hole, if you actually look at his stats, he was one of the best players on this team. If we trade pierre, who would lead off, Furcal? with his .270 AVG. Everyone here talks bad about pierre, but it was furcal who kept making alot of errors. Pierre should have been leading off all year. He led the team in hits, triples, runs, and SB’s. he hit a very good .293, and a .331 OBP. I rather have Pierre hit lead off rather than Furcal. This would be the perfect line up: 1.Pierre
2.Furcal 3.A-Rod 4.Kent 5.Loney 6.Kemp

7.Martin and 8.Ethier

rick

Furcal is not 100%!

JP is an out machine… he leads the team on that category! LOL

A healthy Furcal runs circles around Pierre. Furcal is one of the top SS in the league while Pierre isn’t even on the radar as a CF.

So are you gonna count on Furcal being 100% this year? I’m not. I say keep Furcal and Pierre, so you have 2 players who can lead off, if someone gets hurt. Explain Furcal’s 15+ errors a year. He also made a big error this year that cost the Dodgers a game against the Giants late in the season.

rick!

u see.. furcal might have 15 errors a year!

but JP is a complete error!

he cost as every game he plays… he can’t throw out a runner! that’s what cost u a game!

I said all I had to say about the hiring of Joe Torre. The only thing I’d like to add is that there is no way this man can hurt this team. I’m glad to read that Don Mattingly is coming with him, I’d like to see him try his hand at hitting coach, rather than bench coach. I’d like to see a former Dodger on the bench. I think Larry Bowa will be exciting. He has somewhat the personality of the man I was hoping for as manager. With that said I hope that Rick Honeycut returns as pitching coach, I feel he did a fine job this year. Finally I’m hoping Jeff Kent is still our second basemen and most people know how I feel about A-Rod.

I’m counting on Furcal being healthy. And alot of his errors come when he gets to balls that most other people don’t. Sometimes he creates errors because of his range and his arm strength. Give me Furcal over Pierre any day of the week.

Every player has a weakness. Pierre’s weakness is his arm. I could go down the list of every Dodger and name their weakness or weaknesses. You could move Pierre to left and Kemp to center, but dont get rid of him, because he does more good for the team than bad. All of his offensive numbers were good this year. He scored 96 runs batting second. If he would have hit lead off, he would have scored at least 110 runs. So I think Grady cost us the season, not Pierre.

Why would you start Laroche when we already have enough young guys starting.

Posted by: rickcindyh@aol.com | November 6, 2007 10:44 AM

ABSURD!

Cameron, I think what you said about Furcal is the opposite. He makes all of the great plays. His errors come on the routine outs, when he tries to overthrow the ball.

Manny are you trying to say LaRoche would do better than A-Rod? A-Rod is the best player in baseball, when its all said and done he will be the best player ever. There’s no way you start LaRoche, when you could have A-Rod

Rick:

I think I disagree with pretty much everything you have written on your posts, including “and” and “the.”

alright rick i get it!

u love JP..LOL

Rick:

All I said that your statement was absurd. How can a team have too many young players, especially of they’re good and cheap like ours?

I didn’t say a word about A-rod. Although I would rather have LaRoche at a fraction of the cost and spend the rest on pitching.

rick
no one in here said that LaRoche would do better than ARod…

they are just saying that ARod cost alot of money! and LaRoche who have a potential to be a good player would do good for them instead of having to pay a large amount of money!

where are u reading those things ur saying?

lol

Manny, a team can easily have too many young players– that is equally absurd…

Ewk:

I’m talking about good, cheap young players.

Manny, we have NO power. Every team that has won a World Series has at least one big bat. We dont have one. A-Rod over LaRoche any day. Who cares about the money. A-Rod will pay for himself, with all the money the Dodgers will gain if he comes here.

agree with you…

ARod over LaRoche..

but anyone over JP is good too…!

Rick = Scott F. Borras

And the problem that everyone ignores when they say “spend the rest on pitching” is that there is NO pitching. Pettite– thats pretty much it.. Who else, Jason Jennings? No way. The best bet is to sign the bat and trade for the pitching.. Its just more logical. Good pitchers just arent FA really– they get locked up because they;re more rare of a commodity. You arent going to get a give up a good pitcher, be it through trade or FA, without getting something in return.

That being said, i love the idea of trading LaRoche for Lester. Its a bonafide number 3 starter in the NL, has playoff/WS experience, and he is young. LaRoche would be like Lowell at Fenway, pull power off the Green Monster. It would be a good fit. Everyone makes the point that LaRoche has never been given enough AB’s, which is certainly valid, but when he is given an opportunity he definately never makes the most of it… Spring Training is the best example.

Btw, LaRoche has plenty of power. His minor league numbers show more power than Kemp and Loney combined.

And please save the he hasn’t shown it in the majors argument. To prove yourself you have to get a chance to play. 57 Ab’s is in no way definitive.

La Roche really hasnt proven that he is good

the Minors number at the launching pad in Vegas– how long were Kemp and Loney in the minors compared to LaRoche?? i bet he has more minor league service than the two of them combined..

one could also make the argument, manny, that in order to play you need to prove yourself.. He will get plenty of opportunities this winter, spring, next year
We arent getting A-Rod and LaRoche isnt going anywhere;.. unfortunately…

Ewk:

Spend the rest on pitching or save it for another day. Johan will be a FA at the end of next year.

Why spend for the sake of spending when you have promising, young, cheap pieces in place?

And please stop it with the trade talk. Any trade for pitching will absolutely pillage us considering Ned would be the one making the deal.

Ewk:

Why do you want to get rid of LaRoche? Its makes no sense. He’s patient at the plate, has a good glove, and our best power prospect (that btw, is Logan Whites description of LaRoche in an interview with Harold Reynolds on MLB.COM yesterday). He has precisely what this team needs at 3B and in the middle of the lineup.

You’re dislike of him is completely irrational.

rickcindy wrote: “Why would you start Laroche when we already have enough young guys starting. We need a power hitting 3rd basemen”

Because, LaRoche has all the potential to be that power hitting 3B and will cost little money and no prospects to have him at 3B for us. BTW, a .331 OBP is horrible, absolutely horrible. Pierre would not make a good lead-off batter for that very reason. Forget about BA, OBP is what matters for a lead off guy… get on base!

i think rick is actually ned since he loves juan so much.

Im still of the opinion that LaRoche could be good, he’s almost assured to be if we trade him since that’s our luck. He did put up really good numbers in the minors and he is crucified because he didn’t do well right our of the gate. Most prospects don’t. Plus he was hurt for a good portion of they year. He’s still extremely valuable as many GMs know his potential. Thats why I would only be ok with getting someone like Lester, who I do think could be had, or another young starter who is mlb ready.

Ill just say this– getting A-Rod is not spending for the sake of spending. He is the best player in the game.

If you could get A-Rod and Lester, or just have LaRoche– isn’t it kind of a no brainer??

I would say that he doesnt have that great of a glove, but that is irrelevant in the conversation. I dont see how he could be a better power prospect than Kemp, but if Logan says it i have to listen.. Also, just saying, its not like Logan is going to go on with Harold Reynolds and talk down LaRoche…

While LaRoche might have potential, A-Rod is bonafide and Lester is a very good starter, which we need. But its really the fact that there is a GREAT third baseman on the market, we could get GREAT value for LaRoche, and combine that with his underwhelming performances at , yes, gasp, the MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL (the only one that counts last time i checked), and id be more than happy to trade him. But only if we get A-Rod of course..

ewk… i’ve been agreeing a lot with your lately (about making a push for signing a-rod, or the brief politics rants with max), but i disagree with your assessment of LaRoche. He’s proven it everywhere except his brief time with the big team. Given that his brother is a big leaguer, and his dad too was a big leaguer, he should have no problem eventually adjusting to the majors. (There’s some stat somewhere to back up this claim, but for now you’ll just have to take my word for it) He has rare power and patience, a good enough glove, rocket arm,… he’s a good prospect. If we flop on the A-Rod front, we should not hesitate giving LaRoche the job at 3B. If we sign A-Rod, how about LaRoche at 2B. He was drafted as ****. That would be a dynamic infield for many years: A-Rod, Hu, LaRoche, Loney.

Which isnt going to happen, so i hope we dont trade LaRoche — lol

That certainly would be a nice infield for years and years… I’d be equally happy having an infield of A-Rod, Raffy, Hu (at second), Loney and getting some stud young pitcher for LaRoche, but i see your point.. From where i stand right now, we need another starter as badly as we need another bat, and it could be relatively simple to address both this off season.. If we signed Pettite tomorrow i think argument would change. But regardless, look at our rich farm system– you have to make some trades because you dont have room for all of them..

Lets please stop dreaming about Lester. NO WAY we get him for LaRoche.

because Boston wouldnt do it? Why is there no way?

Bottom line, we have the money for A-Rod and if we have a chance I think he’s worth getting. We shouldn’t just trade LaRoche away for scrap. If we don’t get A-Rod, LaRoche should be a very capable 3B. Remember, he was not healthy in his call up, his playing time was very erratic to say the least, and he only got 98 ABs (roughly 1/6 a full season). You can not make a judgement on a guy after that. Also, he did show some improvement in his last 50 Abs, and a .365 OBP is nothing to be down about.

I mean, you realize we just completely ignored Abreu. We simply need to figure out who is necessary and who is expendable, but standing pat and doing nothing is not an option…

Boston would never do it. The would ask for much more, along the lines of Clayton F. Kershaw.

I know, i know. Im not judging him– im really not… I dont think A-Rod would come to the NL.

Expendable: Abreu, Young, Ethier.

Not: Kemp, Loney, Billz, Broxton, LaRoche, Martin.

I’d make Hu expendable as well

I really hope Kershaw is a ML starter opening day 2009… 2009 Rotation: Santana, Penny, Bills, Kershaw, Schmidt….

Starting pitchers that I think are worth getting are Pettitte, which is a real possibility, and Carlos Silva. After that you may have to consider a trade, but you wouldn’t have to do anything. I’d be ok(not thrilled) going into the season with a rotation of Penny, Lowe, Bills, and Wolf, Schmidt, Kuo, Loaiza, and whoever steps up in spring training. You can’t count on any of these guys, but I’d put some money down that perhaps one of these guys gives u something valuable this year. Then, if u need another starter, trade for one during the season. It would cost us less in terms of talent to do it during the year than now simply because the teams we’d trade with would have less leverage than they do now.

I agree with that Manny, except, as i think everyone already knows, i would make LaRoche expendable as well

Hu should not be expendable. he’s legit. Best SS prospect in baseball. Once Raffy is gone, its Hu time.

Good point Dodgerdude

I want Kershaw to start by July.

Twins could be out of it by midseason and be looking to dump Santana…

Get outta here Dodgerdud

Without looking at the names, which one would you guys rather have?

A. after this players first 142abs .232 .264 .408 .672

B. after this players first 93abs .226 .365 .312 .677

Good point about the mid season trade, not Hu, although he is extremely good and capable of being our SS…
But really good prospect can equal really good proven player.

Junger:

I’ll go with B

That what my baseball prospectus tells me about Hu. He is the real deal though, best SS arm in baseball. Period.

I already saw the comparison on here Jungar– A is A-Rod and B is Laroche right? Those numbers are too similar to choose– but it should be noted that A-Rod was 19 when he put up those numbers– LaRoche- 24 i think?

I’ll all for trading Raffy

i know B is LaRoche, but i would have chosen B anyway.

Hu is really really good…

Oh, and I really don’t like having Kent back. I would much rather have any one of Hu, Abreu, or LaRoche at second next year at, once again, a minuscule fraction of the cost.

A is Arod.

My answer would be, how the **** do I know.

Ok Lester isn’t God. I was putting him out there as a suggestion, but he’s not on the level of like a Bills, Cain or someone like that. He’s only made a handful of starts. He projects to be a #4 or 5 in the AL. Maybe a #2 or #3 in the NL. Anyways…

Plan A should be trying to sign A-Rod. Plan B should be making a trade for Cabrera. LaRoche would be too much of a risk, because we dont know what we could get out of him. We could make a solid package of players to get Cabrera IF we dont get A-Rod. But we have to get one of them

EWK good point on age..I think that is important.

Really for me the only 3 guys I wouldn’t trade are Kemp, Martin and Billinglsey.

In general I think we would be better off just keeping all kids and let them grow together under Torre.

Ricky:

You have things completely *** backwards. LaRoche would be the least risky move. A-rod would be a tremendous risk money-wise. Cabrera is a huge risk because you would be trading the farm for a guy who, at 24, is already having weight problems. If LaRoche doesn’t pan out or becomes a perpetual injury liability, you can move on from there without giving up $300 + mil or a boat-load of young talent.

I still want to see Kemp and a couple prospects traded for Jason Bay and either of Duke/Gorzelanny/Grabow.

well why even stop there??? id trade martin straight up for cabrera! how could you not? no one is untouchable for the right price guys.

Here comes Cameron with his anti-Kemp propaganda. LOL.

but i should reiterate, if its not a good trade, than don’t do it.

Manny dont you agree that in order to win a world series you need a player that strikes fear into the other teams pitcher? We dont have one yet. The number 1 goal for this team has to be getting a power bat. If they dont, its basically gonna be the same team as last year.

well what we should be doing is getting rid of the players that hit zero hrs. ahem ahem.

I agree LaRoche is not risky. Signing Pierre last off-season, that was 1000 times more risky. This whole “you know what you’re getting from Pierre” argument doesn’t change the fact that he simply is not worth the investment we gave him.

Here we go with Pierre again. He’s a lead off guy, who cares if he doesnt hit homeruns

Strike fear? Major League pitchers, good ones, don’t get scared. You think anyone instills fear into Papelbon? Beckett? Schilling? come on… LaRoche could be our answer at 3B. But again, I’d like A-Rod if we could possibly get him.

lead off guys are supposed to get on base. He doesn’t do that either!!!

LaRoche is not risky financially. But if you want to win championships, he is risky, cuz you dont know what he will give you. And you do know what A-Rod or Cabrera will give you

Ricky, I think we all agree we need a middle of the order stick, but history shows that those players are developed from within and when not those players usually go on to play for teams that never make it to WS. About the only recent example I can think of that does not support this is the Red Sox.

We are so on the cusp of having a great nucleaus, trading them now would be stupid. I’d like them to sign A-rod, but fear that when they do we will become the SF Giants.

He’s not good at anything but stealing bases. Not good defensively, no power, doesn’t get on base enough… oh but he has a slightly above average BA! even though he always leads the world in outs.

Pierre is terrible and anyone who dosen’t think so looses all credibility with me.

I want A-Rod because he is available, we could use a power bat, he’s a great star, all we would give up is money (all be it, a lot of **** money), and it would make us instant favorites to represent the NL in the WS. If we don’t get A-Rod, there is no need to trade the farm for Cabrera. LaRoche can be a 30 homer guy. Even though we don’t know for sure what he will do, he has that potential. We should give him a chance to show it before we send him off with 2 other top prospects for Cabrera.

To sum it up once again: A-Rod is a luxury, not a necessity.

Pierre’s OBP was .331
Furcals was 2 points higher.

Chris Young’s OBP was .295

Soriano was about .335

So .331 is not as bad as everyone says it is.

manny you liked that Kemp deal didn’t you? lol you knew I had to throw that at ya.

I guess everyone sees that Schilling is off the trade block now. He’s going back to Boston.

rickcindyh@aol.com | November 6, 2007 12:31 PM :

You are cherry picking your stats. (At the other end of the spectrum, Dustin Pedroia’s OBP was .380. And Young and Soriano made up for their OBP shortcomings with power.)

More importantly, the NL, overall, had an OBP of .334. Teams that want to be contenders should, ideally, have lead off hitters with OBPs that significantly outperform the league as a whole. Especially if that hitter brings nothing else to the plate (literally).

the Minors number at the launching pad in Vegas– how long were Kemp and Loney in the minors compared to LaRoche?? i bet he has more minor league service than the two of them combined..

Posted by: ewk216@nyu.edu | November 6, 2007 11:30 AM

—————————-

ewk216, I posted these numbers back on the 24th:

Career AAA batting:

Name___ PA 2B 3B HR BB K BA OBP SLG OPS

LaRoche 541 32 2 28 64 74 .315 .399 .572 .971

Loney___ 667 52 3 9 57 82 .341 .394 .482 .876

LaRoche is eight months older than Loney.

And for those who like to judge LaRoche by his major league numbers to date, remember that some rookies are hot out of the gate and some are not. For every Loney or Kemp that starts out blazing there is a counterexample. The Padres got a 109 OPS+ season from Kevin Kouzmanoff by sticking with him through an awful start. Dustin Pedroia was horrible at the beginning of the season, ended with a 112 OPS+.

Andy LaRoche has 115 PAs in the major leagues; it is far too early to give up on him showing his potential. Good thing James Loney had his good start to offset his August numbers or he might have been written off too.

LaRoche MLB career vs. Loney August 2007:

Name___ PA 2B 3B HR BB K BA OBP SLG OPS

LaRoche 115 5 0 1 20 24 .226 .365 .312 .677

Loney___ 99 3 0 2 8 13 .244 .303 .344 .647

ALERT ***** ALERT *****
NED COLETTI ****ALERT****’

BRETT TOMKO HAS FILED FOR FREE AGENCY*****

Yes Ricky, compared to the absolute worst OBP of regular players, Pierre’s isnt that bad. Chris young has power, speed, and good defense, Soriano has great power and speed, Furcal has defense and some speed… and was also hurt all year. Pierre has… speed?

Updating my post from 1:01 P.M. to include Kemp, who is one year younger than LaRoche.

Career AAA batting:

Name___ PA 2B 3B HR BB K BA OBP SLG OPS

LaRoche 541 32 2 28 64 74 .315 .399 .572 .971

Loney___ 667 52 3 9 57 82 .341 .394 .482 .876

Kemp___ 376 30 9 7 27 52 .350 .403 .551 .954

We Dodger fans should be glad we have all three of these guys.

MARTIN

GOLD GLOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

way to go

Nice stats fogey. Yeah I wish everyone, myself included, would just be patient.

The not being patient method has failed now for 20 years.

Thanks for those stats Fogey. Its amazing how humbling an objective statistical analysis can be.

Loney has been anointed a perennial all-star by many, myself included. Yet LaRoche is already being maligned as a complete bust. Your stat comparison of Loney’s August and LaRoche’s so-regarded bust of a career is striking. The bottom line is players are always going to struggle. The great thing about baseball though is that things always even out. LaRoche showed more in the minors than Loney and Kemp. I simply refuse to concluded, on the basis of fewer than 100 ab’s,that he is a far inferior player than those other two. Patience with LaRoche will pay off.

Im not saying LaRoche is a bust, but I am saying that I’d rather have A-Rod. Look where patience has gotten the Lakers. Patience is good but not when it comes to winning championships. Its all about winning now. The Dodgers have a good core of Loney Martin and Kemp, but everyone else is expendable. I say do whatever it takes to win now.

excuse me rick!

i think the lakers is doing pretty good rayt now! and im sure they would be alot better as Farmar and Bynum matture alot more!

and that’s becoz of waiting! if u have good young players don’t waste their talents! coz u know they are good… why the **** would u trade them!

the lakers are*

Hey, Ive been a laker fan forever, but you cant tell me that you agree with their front office. I like Bynum, but we could have had alot of players that could have helped us win now. Not to mention letting Shaq go (The worst decision ever) I dont want that to happen to the Dodgers. We have alot of young talent, it wont hurt to give up a few of them, to get players who are in their prime now.

rick

miami heat are 0-3 with shaq!

Lakers are 2-1 wtih Kobe and No Lamar!

i don’t care about shaq… his time is over! it’s all Kobe and the lakers from now on! move on!

ur right we could have get someone like JO, Boozer etc. but the lakers didn’t.. move on now!

the player we have are playing well rayt now!

rick

miami heat are 0-3 with shaq!

Lakers are 2-1 with Kobe and No Lamar!

i don’t care about shaq… his time is over! it’s all Kobe and the lakers from now on! move on!

ur right we could have get someone like JO, Boozer etc. but the lakers didn’t.. move on now!

the player we have are playing well rayt now!

Calm down Jan, there just 2-1. I hope your right about the Lakers, but they just dont have enough talent with this team to win a championship. Its good to be patient with certain players like they were with Kobe, but sometimes you have to be willing to trade some young talent for proven stars.

actually ur the one who needs to calm down!

im the one who is willing to wait here! ur the one who wants to win it all RIGHT NOW!

the only one that **** on the team is Cook!

i want Brown to stay coz he is pretty good on defense!

2-1 ur right… could have been 3-0 with all those 3 games against top teams on the western conference!

ur the one who is lacking confidence on young players!

u want 1 championship ring!

i want more! young players can give u that! yeah MORE!

the dodgers and the lakers futures are looking good rayt now!

They are the LAKERS!
they should always be competing for a champioship, as should the Dodgers. Our 2 teams have a great history, and we as fans shoouldnt settle for first round playoff losses. I like where the Dodgers are going with the Torre signing, but now go get A-Rod. This is LA we want to win now.

rick

let me guess…

Kobe hater and a shaq lover? LOL

No, Im on Kobe’s side. I dont blame him for wanting to be traded. All he wants to do is WIN. I like Shaq too, cuz they never should have let him go.

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