Statement from Frank McCourt

“As the steward of the Los Angeles Dodgers, I am steadfast in the belief that performance-enhancing drugs have no place in baseball. The Dodgers have supported and fully cooperated with this investigation, initiated by the commissioner and conducted by Senator Mitchell. We wholeheartedly support Commissioner Selig’s efforts to rid the game of these substances and we commend Senator Mitchell on a thorough investigation. Our commitment to our fans during our stewardship has been and always will be to do everything in our power to maintain the game’s integrity.

“With that said, I have not had the chance to read the report in its entirety and once I am able to do so, I’ll be willing to share any further thoughts.”



    Well by McCourt’s statement, I’m sure the owners will now close ranks and toe the party line.

    Fehr will come out and say how unfair everything is and that the union has always supported a clean game.

    I’m sure each and every player named in this report will deny all allegations (Clemens attorney already is attacking the accuser and the Feds – doth he protest too much?)

    So what really happens now?


    Am I missing something on why no one has commented? I am with you all the way, Frank!Now let’s go and win the 2008 World Series!All the way with The Super Los Angeles Dodgers!


    The importance of the clean up hitter?-

    I did a study in which i took 50 players who had about 400-600 PA’s batting in nearly the same place in the batting order (i combined 5/6 batters, as they often switched, and the 7/8/(9AL) players for the same) and took a look at how often they faced big game situations with 2/3 men on base-

    Leadoff – 12%

    2nd – 13%

    3rd – 16%

    4th – 18%

    5th/6th – 20%

    7/8/9th – 17%

    So, the 3-9 hitters all had nearly the same % of PA’s with multiple men on base. So the question is then, how successful were they? A random sample –


    C. Jones – .325 batting avg.

    Pujols – .304

    B. Abreu – .272

    Griffey – .253


    T. Helton – .343

    G. Anderson – .318

    Manny – .277

    A. Jones – .255


    J. Posada – .317

    I. Rodriguez – .309

    A. Dunn – .250

    H. Matsui – .212


    Jacque Jones – .324

    Inge – .302

    J. Barfield – .250

    J. Uribe – .235

    So, in a game where the league wide avg. is 4.5 runs scored a game, in situations where you can achieve half of that total or more with an extra base hit, and the 3-9 hitters have appox. the same % of big game situations, they seem, in this random sampling, to succeed about the same % of the time.


    It was a sad day in baseball, like the passing of an era. there is only one thing to do and that is to turn the page. It’s yesterdays news and the less said about it the better. In the 60 years of following this game it still looks the same. As far as I’m concern nothing happened and it makes no difference to me. LET’S GET KURODA.


    “Discipline of players and others identified in this report will be determined on a case-by-case basis … If warranted, those decisions will be made swiftly.” — Bud Selig

    I agree with Selig that swift action should be taken against those who had a part in the Steroid Era. And I know just who should be first on Selig’s list — Bud Selig.

    As commissioner Selig passively watched as the Steroid Era unfolded. While there is plenty of blame to go around, nobody — not BALCO, not Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire or Sammy Sosa, not sundry batboys and locker room personnel — no individual is more responsible for the Steroid Era than Bud Selig.

    As such Selig should announce his resignation at the earliest possible moment. He should take full responsibility for his inaction. He should vow to never again have any official connecton with the game, and keep that vow for the remainder of his life.

    He should make but one recommendation on his way out the door — that the owners hire a strong commissioner and give him broad powers to deal with those players identified in the Mitchell report according to his discretion and equally broad powers to deal with all other aspects of drugs in baseball. The name Fay Vincent comes to mind.

    By any account I’v ever read Bud Selig is a decent man and a true fan of the game. His long friendship with the classy all-time homerun leader Hank Aaron reflects very well on him. It is a shame that a good man has failed in such a very public way.

    I hope that Selig does resign to set an example for others, and so that on the day he dies fans everywhere will add to the already inevitable comment, “Boy, that Selig was one lousy commissioner” this one, “But you’ve really gotta admire him for stepping up and taking full responsibility and consequences for his actions. Bad commissioner? Yeah, But one **** of a man.”


    WHY, Does it seem, that, the oriental players, are being omitted (????) from these tests. Or are they ??????


    I believe that the Mitchell Report…
    … is NOT the whole iceberg and there are legions more players who are guilty.

    … muddies the water regarding records and “best of all-time” arguments. hard to believe that maris and aaron were juicing. how do you even begin to compare the current records to theirs?

    … may not matter to those IN the majors, but matters to those striving to get TO the majors (meaning, if everybody in the majors is juicing, then how much pressure is there for kids to minor leaguers to juice to get to ‘the show’?)

    … is not just about baseball. you already know NFL players used roids. you have to believe they are using HGH to heal, etc. hockey and boxing probably the same. basketball, who knows. doubt bowling, golf, darts, etc.

    in the end, i don’t think i care about what has happened or what people have done to get here. i think the real issue here is HOW DO YOU MOVE FORWARD CLEANLY and give all athletes a chance to move up, compete, and excel on a level playing field where your only advantages are SKILL, HARD WORK, LUCK, and TALENT.

    let’s find a way to test. and if guilty from here on out, adios from the league for good.


    “By the time Gagne and Brown were at their Dodgers peak in the 2003 season, it was obvious to me that both players were probably on steroids …
    But the players would admit nothing, so there was nothing I could write.” — Bill Plaschke,1,1962947.column?page=2&coll=la-headlines-sports-mlb-dodger

    This is a pathetic comment from one who claims to be a journalist. If it was obvious to Plaschke that Brown and Gagne were using steroids, he not only CAN write things, it is his DUTY to write things. It is his JOB to investigate, and to get to the bottom of things. Plaschke, along with almost the entire corps of baseball writers and reporters, was complicit in the Steroid Era. They all chose to turn a blind eye. Perhaps Plaschke and the Times were concerned about a charge of slander by Brown, Gagne, and the Dodgers. First of all, TRUTH is a complete defense to any libel. But even if Plaschke didn’t have enough evidence to name names, he could have at least repeatedly raised the issue.

    At best Plaschke and the other so-called journalists were merely too lazy to carry out their duties. At worst, they purposely covered up the use of performance-enhancing drugs.



    I just changed my Christmas list and added a Barry Bonds autographed baseball inscribed “Mitchell Report 2007”.


    It was a sad day when two big time former Dodgers were named. Shame on you LoDuca and Gagne your records as Dodgers no longer exist in my mind, you guys are steriod freaks right next to Bonds.

    On a happier note I was glad to not see my boy Beltre on that list.

    DODGERS ’08!!!!


    * I was also glad to see no current Dodgers on that list. Hopefully the players will stay clean and the Steroid era is over.


    I agree diehardblu, it’s nice that no one in our clubhouse was named, one less distraction we need to worry about for now. I wonder when the next shoe is going to drop and more names start coming out. Have you seen the denials already starting to fly out?


    The level of proof probably does not reach the point necessary in a court of law, but I would accept the checks and mailing receipts associated with the Lo Duca and Gagne cases. Since they are both still active, I think it would be appropriate to have them both suspended for at least a couple of months. Lo Duca probably more so, because he seems to be the procurer in the clubhouse.

    If equal level of proof can be substantiated with Clemens and some of the other high profile candidates, the Hall of Fame should be closed to them.


    Way to go Frank. Baseball has to maintain it’s integrity and drugs have no place in the game. I’m saddened by the reports of LoDuca and Gagne, both were great Dodgers and this taints everything they’ve done on the field.


    What do you do with all the records of the proven juicers? What if a juiced pitcher faced a juiced batter? – do you count those since they were on a level playing field?

    Point being can we count anything that’s been done from about ’88 on? Do we count everything? Obviously Gagne’s consecutive save streak is tainted. Bond’s homers are a farce as are Big Mac’s and Sosa’s. Do we put an asterisk by every player’s name that played during the “steroid era?”

    *May have been on steroids and/or HGH.

    Moving on from yesterday is fine, but above all else baseball is a game of statistics and history. Who’s records do the players shoot for and fans recognize now?

    Just a big mess with two of the biggest rolls played by Selig and Fehr, but there’s plenty of culpability to go around for just about everyone.

    OK, those are my last words on the subject. Let’s move on…


    Based in light of La Duca being the Dodgers Clubhouse drug pusher. My apologies to Mr. Depodesta, I take back all my criticism of him when LaDuca was traded. In the end we were blessed with Russell Martin as a result. The big guy in the sky might just be a Dodgers fan afterall.
    I am burning my LaDuca jersey to boot!

    I think the only punishment for any of these cheaters is that the should be made ineligible for the Hall of Fame and stricken from the history books.

    Though I do see a lawsuit brewing from some of these players. Afterall, this Mitchell report in mostly based on heresay and as a result, peoples reputations are forever damaged.


    Reading Plaschke this morning at breakfast, and then reading a few blogs here, allow me, as the grammar police, to point out a most bizarre part of his column: “…it was obvious to me that both players were probably on steroids…” “Obvious” teamed with “probably.” I now decree ANY of us in here are more competent to write for the Times than Plaschke.


    I have to disagree with those who now feel that baseball has sufficiently cleaned up its steroids mess and that we can now “move on”. I think that it is imperative to follow up on the Mitchell report. Names are out there now. Pressure should be brought to bear on all those named to give full and public explanations of their actions and/or to name others that they know to have used performance-enhancing drugs. Yes, I’m saying that the players need to be pressured to turn on their friends and teammates, much as police would pressure any co-conspirators are pressured to turn on each other. It’s ugly, but not as ugly as the original cheating.

    The Mitchell report is necessarily weak because of the lack of muscle Mitchell had to work with. But the report itself provides new and stronger muscle for a continued investigation. That muscle should be exercised.

    Obviously, the 100% complete truth about every MLB steroid user will never be completely uncovered, and at some point it will be time to “move on”. But we are not yet anywhere near that point. It would be nice if such a huge scandal could be so easily dismissed. But I believe baseball owes it to all those injured to do a thorough report.


    Based in light of La Duca being the Dodgers Clubhouse drug pusher. My apologies to Mr. Depodesta, I take back all my criticism of him when LaDuca was traded. In the end we were blessed with Russell Martin as a result.

    And Brad Freaking Penny!! Who in three years as a dodger has thrown 550+ innings of roughly 3.80era and 39 wins in 95 starts

    That deal was a steal for us.


    The whole era from 1995 to 2003 should be footnoted as the Steroid Era where juiced players, juiced balls, and smaller ballparks contributed to an anomally of offensive (literally and figuratively) production. Teams, owners, and players all turned a blind eye to the obvious use of performance enhancing substances in order to regain enthusiasm after the strike. Let’s move on and take it for what it was. A dark period in baseball.


    Sure would like to nail Kuroda down and get ready for Spring Training. Hopefully, interest in Pierre will increase as well.


    Agreed jungar. I never hated DePo for that trade, although it definitely hurt the ’04 team late in the season. I just hated how DePo, the following year, obliterated a roster of familiar faces and replaced most of them with total nobodies. His pitching acquisitions seem to be just fine (Lowe, Penny), but the position players he brought in were just embarassing overall (Kent excluded). Choi…Navarro…everyone who played 3B and SS except Robles…remember how with Izturis injured we had no consistent 3B and no SS? Man. Looking back on ’05, Coletti’s ’07 team looked like a dream team.


    Heard a great point on Dan Patrick Show this AM. The only guys “outed” were the ones whose dealers were stupid enough to get caught. There must be countless players still unnamed and will be forever shielded. I mean, come on, Gonzo not named??????????? Sorry, Luis, but at age 30 you hit 10 HR in 550 AB. Four years later, at age 34, you knock 57 HR in 609 AB. If you’re innocent, I apologize…but this has become the climate of the game now. Suspicion.


    Certainly, we will never know the true extent of the problem and who used. Everyone and every stat from this era will be suspect forever. Write it up, clean it up, and let’s move on to a better era in baseball.


    This story talks about what the Giants front office, as well as Stan Conte, knew about the steroid culture in their clubhouse. I know that it is occasionally popular to bash Coletti, Conte, Schmidt, et al, for their prior association with the Giants, but this article speaks highly to me of Conte’s character. It also seems to imply that although Sabean was told of the drug use in his clubhouse, he didn’t speak with others in the organization about it, from which we might be able to deduce that Mr. Coletti had no specific knowledge of the drug use. It would be nice to be able to think that the Dodgers got two members of the Giants that were not tainted by the steroid scandal there.

    Also, with as thorough as the BALCO investigation was, you’d think they probably outed most of the players who got their drugs in the bay area. Good to see that Schmidt’s name was not on that list.


    A Very Incomplete List of Those Hurt by the Steroid Era

    (I will use the acronym PHD to signify steroids, HGH, etc.)

    1) All those who took steroids.

    2) The Fans

    3) MLB players who were influenced to use PHDs when they saw less talented players eclipsing them by using PHDs (See the tragic fall of natural baseball great Barry Bonds.)

    4) Clean MLB players who had to play against PHDers.

    5) Clean MLB player whose careers appear merely very good when without the use of PHDs by others, they might have been seen as greats.

    6) Clean MLB player whose careers appear merely good when without the use of PHDs by others, they might have been seen as very good.

    7) Clean MLB player who were bench/platoon players when without the use of PHDs by others, they might have been solid everyday starters.

    8) The above categories of players at every level from Little League to college ball.

    9) Pre-Steroid Era players whose places in the record books have been usurped by cheaters (Example: Mike Schmidt is now 12th on the all-time homerun list having been passed by obvious PHDers Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and unbelievably Rafael Palmeiro)

    10) 1970s and ’80s era MLB greats who came up for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame during the Steroid Era and whose accomplishments were diminished in the light of the numbers being put up by PHD cheaters. (Jim Rice is probably the prime example of this. Rice, who has been passed on the all-time HR list at least 19 times during the Steroid Era, has come within about 50 votes of election.)

    11) Players who lost MLB awards to PHD users. (Although it can be difficult or impossible to ascertain who exactly was cheated out of an award. For one thing, many of those who finished second, third and beyond are themselves probable or possible PHDers too. (For example the 2001 NL MVP voting went like this: 1. Bonds 2. Sosa 3. Luis Gonzalez 4. Albert Pujols 5. Lance Berkman)

    12) Virtually all MLBers whose career encompassed the Steroid Era and who are now at least minimally suspect of being PHD cheaters. (Example: Andruw Jones was recently accused on this board of being a probable PHD user despite a career arc that strongly suggests otherwise.)


    Its really a shame about Clemens. Part of me thinks that he could have been taking them for a lot longer than since 2001, but he probably would have broken down a long time ago had that been the case.

    Steroids clearly wreck your body after consistent use…

    I think Selig needs to go. I have no idea what to do about the record books– its really just a shame. Put a lot of asterisks, and hopefully all the future generations of baseball fans will recognize these players for they were, and not compare them to the truly great players in baseball’s past.


    Nice posts MartinLoneyKemp. I agree.
    Ewk, the consequences of taking steroids will most likely haunt these guys for the rest of their lives. I hope so!


    it’s funny, I am a new dad, former high level athelete and would never ever want my kid doing steroids and I don’t like steroids, but for whatever reason I can care less about all this. I love baseball, own a game over shirt etc..

    It’s almost like wondering which Movie Starts have had Plastic Surgery.


    I am with you on that jungar…
    I also think that faced with the same decision as these athletes in the mid 90’s, knowing there was no testing or anything, most people would do the same thing if only to keep up with the other users. Especially the fringe major leaguers… If they could get an advantage and set themselves up financially for the rest of their lives, it seems obvious why they did it


    Thanks jhail.


    I haven’t read enough of the report or have enough evidence otherwise to come to a conclusion about Gagne. My bluebearded Gagne shirt was the one I wore to games, and has remained in my regular T-shirt rotation. But I may have to discard it.

    We who railed against Barry Bonds must be prepared to swallow our own bitter pills be they named Gagne, LoDuca or any other Dodger. It is indeed a sad day.

    Oh. And Congratulations on the baby. Hope she(?) is doing well, and that you and your wife are getting enough sleep.



    In regard to the Dodgers involvement, you hit a home run.

    It’s almost like wondering which movie stars have had Plastic Surgery.

    A new meaning to the Dodgers tradition of Hollywood Stars Night!

    May be that is why the cities most implicated are : LA, NY, SF.

    May be Disney’s ESPN can create a series:

    Steriods Before and After!

    Oh…the irony!

    Well as the song says

    “Root root for home team. if they don’t win its a shame.”

    Shame on us!



    You are probably correct that most or at least many would take PEDs under the circumstances. That is why I blame the owners, union leaders, and in particular Bud Selig for the Steroid Era more than I do the individual players.

    I was going to save this for later, but your comment also brings up a group I left off my “Very Incomplete List of Those Who Were Hurt by the Steroid Era”.

    The group most hurt by the Steroid Era were those players who did not use PEDs and fell just short of the major leagues or had abbreviated MLB careers. The difference between AAA pay and major league pay is (usually) tremendous. It’s not at all difficult to imagine that out there somewhere are a couple of hundred guys who might have made millions of dollars as major league players (had they taken PEDs or had others not taken PEDs). Instead they ended up in the general run of employment and income after their minor league careers ended.

    This group deserves our respect for withstanding such a strong and obvious temptation. And I can only hope and pray that they are at peace with their decision and have had much success in their other endeavors.


    > PHD should have been PED (Performance-Enhancing Drugs. Sorry about that.

    Accusing a modern professional baseball player of having a PhD is a truly funny mistake.

    Many MLB players are smart and urbane, but the dedication needed to achieve MLB status seems to preclude the possibility of a person having the similar dedication and time to earn a PhD. It reminds me that Mike Marshall (the closer, not the OF) was truly unusual in having a PhD in kinesiology. It points out the major changes brought about by the end of the reserve clause era. Even the best players used to have to think about life after baseball. I notice that no one asks, “What will ARod do after he retires?”

    The huge dollars earned by veteren players near retirement seem to be a draw beyond the desire to compete. You seldom hear of players that could extend their careers saying that the time to hang up the cleats has come, now that they can’t play to the level that they expect of themselves. You do hear people admit that their families are an important influence on decisions to reture. That was something I never heard 25 years ago. The stated reasons used to be alll about the game, not family. Baseball has truly become a business.

    Do the rest of you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

    Am I correct in noticing the change in stated reasons for retirement?

    What does this say about our culture and the culture of baseball?


    Are steroids, HGH, and amphetamenes much worse or the same as the cheating of pre-steroid baseball?

    It used to be that baseball announcers seemed to regard spitballs, sandpaper inside the glove, and vasoline as a funny part bit of Americana that made baseball unique. Players are supposed to “sell” that they caught the ball when they trapped it. Catchers are expected to “frame” the pitch. If you barely miss a tag, you argue as if your life depended on it so that the next time the ump will cut you a break.

    What do all of you think about instant replay to try to minimize officiating mistakes?


    Unfortunately, the more we look at this issue from a Dodger fan perspective, we find the Hollywood problem Jungar proposed.

    At the time of the problem, the Dodgers were owned by Fox and Bob Daly ran the operation. A former movie studio exec.

    It was: Dodger — Pimp My Ride!

    Hosted by: FOX

    Unfortunately, we all subsribed to the channel.

    I pray McCourt has the leadership to do differently!


    The most obvious, off the top of my head answer is more definately yes for the simple reason that they are illegal…

    We got rid of spitballs, sandpaper, vasoline, sliding in second with your cleats up… Cheating is cheating, but there are varying degress, but nevertheless its not as if cheating was ever accepted and recognized– there was always the attempt to rid it because it threatens credibility of team and sport.


    Ya that’s very true. It’s sad that it had to come to this but youre completely right about the owners and selig. It’s just tough to know that as a player if you take this certain substance that will earn you 500,000 dollars a year or more vs. a minor league salary. I commened anyone that didn’t do it but I can’t necessarily blame anyone that did it knowing at the time there were no consequences in the game of baseball. Obviously they have to deal with the morality issues, but that’s on them.. They are the only ones that have to look themselves in the mirror and live with what they did to their bodies



    Ah yes, Mike Marshall the pitcher. Would only give his autograph to kids who first got the autograph of people like their dads, teachers, and mailmen (now PC mail carriers).

    Instant replay in response to trapping catches and framing pitches. No, no, no, no, no.

    I’ve posted this before in the wake of the “Holliday Miracle” Rockies-Padres game, but there are a decent number of newer posters here so I’ll repost:

    Why shouldn’t baseball go to instant replay review? Why shouldn’t baseball follow the lead of football, basketball and other sports?

    Why? Because baseball is different than other sports. It is more human and more natural than football certainly. In his 1971 essay “Baseball Red and Football Green” Murray Ross called baseball “pastoral”. Baseball is rooted in a different era, even if it may be that era exists(ed) largely in our imaginations. A slower era, one more rooted in nature and the countryside. An era before the production line, the automobile, the computer, and the instant replay.

    The intrusion of excessive technology into baseball can only detract from the beauty of the game.

    The supremacy of baseball as the national pastime has been challenged in recent decades. Foolishly, in my opinion, baseball has attempted to simulate other sports. Basketball is a high-scoring game, so baseball has attempted to induce higher scores. Basketball arenas and football stadiums have long featured a lot of loud music, so basebal has followed suit.

    Ironically and tragically baseball’s attempts to be more like other sports has led to its biggest scandal, or at least its biggest scandal since the 1919 Black Sox. In its pursuit of the higher scores of basketball, baseball turned a blind eye to rampant steroid abuse.

    Comedian George Carlin also explained the difference between baseball and football:

    “Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game. Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.”

    Keep the technology out of baseball.

    Because humans are susceptible to error, baseball must remain susceptible to error, even including the errors of those who officiate it. There are no instant replay reviews in real life, and there shouldn’t be in baseball. It just wouldn’t be human.

    I would bet that even hardcore Cardinals fans who suffered — and no doubt continue to suffer — at the hands of Don Denkinger would agree that baseball is best left in the hands of human beings and not in the technological clutches of the instant replay camera.

    And baseball fans know that ultimately all things will be made right. Sometimes it takes decades. In the case of the Rockies and Padres it only took six innings.

  40. is having a 20 percent off sale right now and i am having a **** of a time deciding between a martin jersey and a kemp jersey


    shepherd – good questions. If I might offer MY answers to the queries in a backwards succession (is that an oxymoron?)… Sandpaper, vasoline, emory boards didn’t alter the game like enhancing your body and becomming superman. Those cheaters got tossed from the game when caught and it was such a miniscule advantage it was a joke. You can argue that framing a pitch, a phantom tag or not really touching second on a DP is just part of the game. All of the above I’m sure has been going on since its inception. Kinda like glancing at someone else’s paper during a test – it isn’t 100% kosher, it’s just how it is. Unless they come up with a laser read strike zone and every conceivable camera angle, which will slow down a game that’s been slowed down enough already, I figure let the umps sort it all out like the’ve been doing for the last 140 years.

    Your other questions are harder. I think you’re correct in your assessment of why athletes hang around longer. The kind of money they make playing an extra year or two is like us laymen hitting the lottery and setting up ourselves for retirement and our families well-being for the next 2-3 generations. The DH afforded an awful lot of these guys the opportunity to hang on another year, as did the mega-expansion of teams.

    Society as a whole has become much more “me” oriented. Been going that direction since the mid 80’s, maybe longer. Instant gratification, get it now, new is better… that may be our legacy from our parents and grandparents who didn’t have everything. Of this “me” transgression, we’re all guilty of in varying degrees. Athletes too.

    We can’t reset the clock and we can’t “do over.” Society in general goes wherever the advertisers, government and media tells them they should go. What the individual does however is up to them, be they rights or wrongs. You take to heart your core values… and you live with the consequences of your choices.

    Athletes too.


    OK, you’ll eat most of that ill conceived contract and give us a bag of batting practice balls. Let me think about it, OK.


    Yeah, I’m new to this blogging stuff… whatcha all think about getting JP from the Dodgers for Thornton?


    I’m sure that more than one post about Pierre will bring down the wrath of this blog on me. I couldn’t help it. Qustions were asked.


    As I said before, my favorite answer to our pitching needs starts with K and ends with uroda.

    Actually, “K” would make a good nickname for a pitcher.


    Out of all the steroid talk it reminds me of just how good Maddux and Glavine are.

    As for my take I mainly think without getting too philospohical that Greed corrupts. It’s across the board in society and sports reflects it. We go to war for greed, we kill our planet’s natrual resources for greed and in this case we destroy the intergrity of the national pasttime for it.

    What does bother me is that if the dodgers didn’t have to pay Gagne, Brown, Loduca a combined 30 million for one season of work, maybe my parking would still be 8 bucks or that Kemp/Martin jersey that ladodgerblue fan wants to get would be 50 bucks, not 75…other than that as other say if the individuals involved want to dance with devil then so be it.

    It’s sad. I guess I am just numb, like when do the games start and for pete’s sake when will Kurdora’s plane land already….lol..let’s just move forward.

    I am not one to think records should be changed. For example Bonds faced Gagne. Tejada faced Cleamens etc…


    Looks like Jenkins and the Pads are heating it up. Don’t know if anyone will touch Cameron now… Oh Boy! – what’s the area code for Chicago?


    jungar – was that you who said JP must’ve been on roids cause hit hit 3 HR in ’04?…

    THAT was funny!


    One thing that I hope results from the report on PED: people can no longer say that steroids don’t help anyone hit a HR. The difference made by steroids is illustrated by young Bonds vs. old Bonds. Balls that used to hit the warning track or the wall started to go over the wall. He went from a fantastic doubles hitter with a few HRs to… well you know it and I hate to say it.

    The report emphasizes the benefits of steroids on the success of a “weight training” program. Canseco used to mock players that actually had the discipline to lift weights regularly. He openly referred to getting his strength in another way.

    Something to think about with respect to Andro and other steroids: as Mark McGuire claims, what he took wasn’t illegal or against the rules of baseball at the time and was available over the counter. I don’t know the facts of his case, but many things that are not illegal may be immoral.

    If his story were absolutely true and he never took drugs that were illegal, should McGuire have Andro held against his chance at the HOF?

    Remember that Pete Rose is not in the HOF only because he broke the rules of baseball and cast a shadow on the game. He was never convicted of anything and only recently admitted to breaking rules. One does not need a conviction or absolute proof to be excluded from the HOF.

    My questions about spitballs were not entirely pointless. Gaylord Perry is now in the HOF. He pitched for the Giants and Pads, among others. He cultivated an image of being a spitball pitcher, but was only caught once– in his 21st year pitching– with Vaseline. I agree that these actions were less serious than drugs and were widely considered amusing or bemusing, even by opposing managers and players. Gene Mauch quipped, “He should be in the Hall of Fame with a tube of KY Jelly attached to his plaque.”

    Some people thought he deliberately got caught as a stunt to increase his notoriety. I know if I were able to meet him, I would bring a jar of Vaseline for him to sign. I bet he would sign it.

    He was a great pitcher: 314 wins, 3534 K, 3.11 lifetime ERA in a 22-year career, an AL Cy Young and an NL Cy Young.


    I don’t know if I can take credit for that, but it does sound like something i would say. His HR ball if caught in the bleechers(lets be honest you would have to not be sitting because it wouldn’t make it that far, but on your way to taking a pee/new beer cause you said, welp the ball is not coming here now) would be worth way more than one of Barrys. What are there like 12 of them in the entire world?


    I don’t think we need to asterisk the record books about the steroid era.

    Nobody will forget. Especially so now because of the report. Still, we all knew it was true in an informal way before the release of the report despite all the player denials. There is just no doubt or question now that there were more than a few guys networking with other baseball guys to get steroids for many reasons.

    As long as there are crazy baseball fans obsessed with knowing everything there is about the game, these years can be kept in perspective like the dead-ball era continues to live on despite none of us being alive to have experienced it.


    > What does bother me is that if the dodgers didn’t have to pay Gagne, Brown, Loduca a combined 30 million for one season of work, maybe my parking would still be 8 bucks or that Kemp/Martin jersey that ladodgerblue fan wants to get would be 50 bucks, not 75…other than that as other say if the individuals involved want to dance with devil then so be it.

    When I went to the games up into the 70’s, the price for bleacher seats was $1.50 for adults and $0.75 for kids under 12. Same for general admission in the top deck. In the early 70’s the price went up to $2.50. Parking was $2 or so. Dodger Dogs were $1.50.

    The first rainout didn’t happen for 20 years. Maybe there is a connection 🙂

    I know there is a connection between entertainers making millions and fans paying more.


    Hard to say jungar – were any of them inside-the-park? lol

    Good old Gaylord – I think he perpetuated a lot of myth’s about his spitter just to get inside the hitter’s head…

    Still kinda show’s you what’s accepted now by society – a little cheating’s OK.


    Shep…in a game like baseball, wouldnt it be easier to play with a little greenie (speed) to get the blood flowing? Or a Cortsoine shot to help with the pain? And as you suggest cheating has always gone on. This stuff is just super stuff. It’s like what do they always say ,don’t try to hit homeruns, or don’t try to throw hard cause you won’t be able to. On roids these guys didnt have to try harder to do things. Thats why Gagne’s 98 fasball could be thrown so accuretly or why Bonds could just hit for contact and half the balls would fly out.

    Anyone who watches sports over the age of say 30 can look at all athletes 15 years ago versus now and its like look at the size difference. Could Wayne Gretzky even play Hockey anymore? The avg NFL line is 330 pounds, up from 265 pounds 15 years ago..etc..

    As for Roids taking the morality out of it, they were all illegal.

    They are all criminals.

    Gagne who I loved makes 10 million a year on roids, wins Cy-youngs, and guys like me where his t-shirt.. but god forbid if I want to smoke a little weed for example.


    DBacks got Haren. **** Their 1-2 is better than ours now. Seems like we could have gotten him without giving up too much, package they got doesn’t seem that great. Carlos Gonzalez and others, no major leaguers.


    Wow Shep! I reacall that when I was a kid movie tickets were 3 bucks.

    And yeah you could go to a dodger game, eat and drink pretty well for like 20 bucks total.


    Baseball America Diamondback prospect rankings:

    Gonzalez #1, Anderson #3, Cunningham #7, Carter #8.

    So without beins scientific about it:

    1. Clayton, Kershaw, lhp

    3. Chin-Lung Hu, ss

    7. James McDonald, rhp

    8. Jonathan Meloan, rhp


    While you’re at it, get him steak. Make it aged Angus beef, about 2 inches thick.

    And don’t forget to get him to Karaoke. Just kidding, but not about the steak.


    We get Kuroda #4 and Schmidt to bouce half-way back at #5 and no way the D-Backs can match it.

    **** I’ll come out to a game and bring little Neddy junior.


    Kuroda stabilizes our 4 spot. It gives Schmidt time to come back. I believe he will pitch well, but not an ace anymore. Come back in the 5 spot ans win 10-12 games and will do well.


    Don’t really care if Schmidt and Loaiza split some time at #5 as long as we get some production out of it. Would be nice if between them they could win 10-12 games and give Kershaw and company another year to develop.

    Even some average numbers in the 4 & 5 slot will benefit by the projected line-up we have.

    I think getting rid of Grittle’s a +5-6 games right there, and AJ is another +3-4. Squeek a few quality starts out of 4 & 5 and I think were in the 93-96 win area assuming everyone stays relatively healthy.


    OMG I’m so mad the DBacks got Haren. Their rotation is beast now. Ned now MUST sign Kuroda, and I think he will. I like Schmidt much better then Loaiza. We need to find a way to dump Loaiza… I fear the DBacks may win the division again now. Their youth has another year under their belt and their pitching is improved. The division is gonna be SOOOOO tough next year!!!!!!! I really feel as if any team(maybe excluding the Giants, although I’ve seen crazier things happen) can win it.


    Who will close for Arizona now that Valverde is gone?

    If they have no sure-fire heir apparent, does it really help their team to get a great starter but destabilize the back end of their bullpen? Remember, they had an atrocious run differential last season for a team with so many wins, and you have to chalk many of those wins up to 1-run games won by the bullpen. Does acquiring Haren for a start every 5 days make up for losing the stability Valverde brought to the 9th inning?


    I tend to agree with MartinLoneyKemp on the steroids issues. And in addition to Jim Rice, who has missed out ont he Hall of Fame, doesn’t Steve Garvey’s career look more impressive now too? Shouldn’t he be in the Hall of Fame?

    Bud Selig is certainly the biggest to blame. A strong commissioner might not have prevented this (in a lot of ways, we did not realize it until it was going on), but could have put a stop to it earlier–either by working with the union or getting tough on them, or by using the Best Interests of Baseball clause. Amazing that Bud has been responsible for the two of the games biggest fiascos (cancelling the 1994 World Series and now the Steroid Era).

    I don’t know what to do about the players on The List. They are certainly not all of the PED users, and there were clearly pressures on them (Bonds and Clemens may have no excuse, since they were both headed to the Hall of Fame before thesy started using, but what about a guy like FP Santangelo, who couldn’t get picked in most fantasy leagues?). And sadly, the records are the records. As tainted as they are, that is what happened. Bonds hit home runs off Gagne–how do you count that?

    The bigger problem is what to do now. I have not read it all, but it seemed the Mitchell Report’s recommendations were surprisingly weak. The Commissioner (and, it’s clear it should not be Bud), should implement a mandatory urine and blood testing. Like the Mitchell Report indicates, it should be done by an outside agency, and MLB should adopt standards equivalent to other major international sports, including the World Anti-Doping Agency. Essentially, someone should have studied the strictest anti-doping standards in the world, and baseball should adopt them. In addition, no outside trainers should be allowed in the clubhouse. This seems to have been Bonds’s and Clemens’s connection. Why are teams allowing guys not employed by (and subject to the scrutiny and discipline of the clubs) into the clubhouse? Pro-rat rules should be put in place–it may be against the ethic, but trainers and other players should be required to report suspected PED use, and consequences should go not to just the users, but guys who fail to report it too. Players who use should be severly punished (the punishments in place now are probably sufficient, but the enforcement regime is a joke), as should enablers, and clubs who turn a blind eye. These should be pretty draconian measures, because the key is to stop the problem and try to reinstall public confidence in the game. And these are not points of negotiation with the MLBPA–the Commissioner can work with them if they play ball, but otherwise the Commissioner should implement the rules under the Best Interests of Baseball clause. I have always been pro-union, but if the players strike, use replacement players. If the file a complaint with the NLRB and get an injunction (as was proper in 1995), then shut down the league until the budge. Congress (which, as important as baseball is, should really be spending its time on other things) would actually back up a commissioner if he acted with authority here.

    It’s true that there has been other types of cheating. We all know that the Neikro boys threw the spitter, and the 1951 Giants stole signs, but the cheating here is much worse for two enormous reasons:

    1) It never made us question the entire game. Even if Phil Neikro threw a spitter, not every pitcher was immediately suspect. When Albert Belle was caught with a corked bat, it did not automatically make people question every hitter. But now–even if they are not on The List, are there players that are not suspect? I mean, I think that our young guys are clean because they came up after it started becoming an issue. But Pujols and Manny are not on The List, and they will be doubted too.

    2) The effect of this cheating is far more dangers. If Mike Scott really carried around a nail file to doctor the ball, what’s the worst that happens? He pokes himself when he falls? He gets a splinter? With steroids? Barry Bonds feet grew 2 1/2 sizes! Think about Lyle Alzado, who claimed that the brain tumor that killed him was because of steroids. This stuff can seriously damage a person. And if it filters into the amateurs, or the kids that revere the players, its devastating.


    Arizona definitely got better today. Dan Haren is as good a pitcher as Webb, probably the 3rd best pitcher in the NL West now behind Peavy and Webb. Losing Valverde isn’t as big a deal as ppl might, but it will affect them. puppyhead made a good point about their run differential last year. They won’t win as many close games this year, but with Haren now taking the ball 1 outta 5 days, there will be a lot less close games.


    It is going to be tough for MLB to start rewriting the record books, but as far as I’m concerned Aaron and Maris still own the home run marks. I have no love what-so=ever for Bonds, but he sure has plenty of company now. I guess it is finally time for the Gagne bobble head to go to the attic.

    It’ll be interesting to see what McCourt will do now to police the club house to keep the stuff out.


    The Haran to AZ sounds like a sweetheart deal. I don’t recognize the players AZ gave up, so I have to assume that none of them had made as much big league impact as either Kemp or Loney. A very clever and beneficial trade for the D’backs. Why is it that when teams look to the Dodgers they expect to deal from the very top, like including Kemp, Loney or Bills? It just strikes me as unfair. Now it’s either get Kuroda, or give up more than you get back.


    Very good points puppyhead ^^^^^. I agree that the addition of Haren makes the DBacks better, but the loss of Valverde really hurts them. I’m glad to see Valverde go though, I hated that guy!


    I don’t understand AZ’s trade of Valverde… looking at the players they got back(which isn’t too much value) it doesn’t really make sense… Maybe its one of those things like the Lo Duca trade where the organization knows or suspects something that isn’t public.


    My understanding is that AZ traded Valverde in order to keep within their planned salary target – with the addition of Harlen and departure of Valverde they only increased their team salary by $1 million. Compare their accomplishment with what we’re paying for Schmidt, Pierre and Loaiza, and the sheer dollar waste certainly makes us “winners” in that category.


    Sad but true Bear. Hopefully, Schmidt and Loaiza rebound and pitch decently. That will alleviate some of the pain. Also, if Ned can somehow unload Pierre, it will at least make it somewhat more palitable.


    Yea Bear I guess that does make sense… I wouldn’t actually be that surprised if Schmidt came back and pitched decently well though. I mean when he was healthy he wasn’t awful… the same can’t be said for Pierre and Loaiza.


    I would imagine that Pierre is somewhat disgruntled right now. He signed to be the centerfielder and leadoff hitter. He didn’t get to leadoff last year and probably won’t this year and now he has lost the centerfield job. Maybe, he will ask Ned for a trade.


    Let’s hope so jhall… I think Ned has done a pretty good job this offseason, I think he should have resigned Wolf, but atleast he hasn’t done anything stupid like trade the kids. I think Ned is slowly but surely learning what it takes to be a good MLB GM. Hopefully, this trend will continue! 


    I know have been opposing the trade Pierre crowd, but if complained or starting going Sheffield and throwing balls into the stands cause he is disgruntled about not playin center or not batting lead off, Ned should sell his *** to the mexican leauge or Japan. I still like his game but he did get a **** of a contract for slappy. He can be upest as a competitor if his playing time gets cut, but being disgruntled would make him an ingrate. For everyone who was praying Ned would trade him to the Pads, that dream is over cause they just got Edmonds from the Cards. I know it kinda of a downer that LoDuca and Gagne were on that report, but don’t tell me that Game Over and Welcome to the Jungle did not give all of you chills when Gagne came in. He was the reason to even keep watchin some of those games. And LoDuca was a true Dodger in every way possible. He cried, litteraly cried when he was traded. He played his heart out every game. HGH or steroids don’t give you heart like that. He toiled in the minors for almost a decade before he got his shot. He did not let the Dodgers down, the Dodgers let him down. Pauly deserved better than what he got. He did everything he had too to play and not for fame or a contract, cause he loved the game. We should all be that driven and have that much passion. I know that there are more guys than not on roids and HGH that did it for a contract or other reasons, but not Pauly.


    I enjoyed Gagne and LoDuca as Dodgers. I believe LoDuca truely loves the game. Sorry to hear they were on the juice.


    Someone please help me out with why Kuroda is a “must have”. What’s the word on him? I’d much rather have a major league proven starter especially w/ Arizona bolstering their pen. Are folks high on him ’cause he won’t cost us any prospects? That’s allright, but if he flames out, then we’re tied to him for another 3-4 years. I actually have higher hopes that Schmidt comes back to form. Dude is a competitor. A guy like Santana or Bederd is the difference maker we need to be considered contenders…not pretenders even at 3 studs. Anyone know who Kuroda has been compared to? Dice K? Nomo? Chin Meng Weng? Chan Ho? If so, good!! But a question mark is not what we need.


    We don’t have to give up any prospects for Kuroda. I believe that is the number 1 reason, plus he’s apparently a good pitcher with longevity. Look on some of the blogs Leon and they’ve got some video of him in an all-star game. He looked pretty good to me.


    I don’t believe Kuroda is a “must have”. I would like to acquire him as a solid #4 starter as I think his past performance indicates he is a reliable pitcher that can keep you in a game and eat some innings. Comparitively, he is relatively cheap and does not cost us our young core. Penny, Billz, and Lowe can compete with the best starting rotations in baseball. They may not be the best, but are pretty darn good. Getting Kuroda in my opinion will keep Ned from going into panic mode again like last year. He made some ill advised and rash moves when he felt the Dodgers were being surpassed by other teams and would not be competitive. I think Kuroda compares favorably to Nomo. I could be wrong, but I think if we sign him it will provide more stability to the back end of the rotation and give us many more options and time to take advantage of them.


    the arizona deal was certainly odd. it makes me think that other Gm’s just don’t respect ned (can you blame them?) so they are always going to ask for more from him. I mean, if you had told me we could get Haren without giving up anyone our 08 mlb roster, I would have done it. Getting another 4/5 starter is not going to make a big difference, if any difference at all. Getting an ace would have helped tremedously. No Im not in favor of trading our prospects young players at all. I guess Im at a loss how this trade could have been pulled off without giving anyone of real consquence to the DBacks. DBack’s rotation will certainly be fierce and the division in general is getting impossible to hit in.


    Geez, after last years debacle in the 4 and 5 spots of the rotation, how can you say that a solid #4 starter would not be a big boost to our team. If he wins 10-12 games and eats some innings, we will already be way ahead of last year.


    Granted, acquiring a true ace would move everyone down a notch and accomplish the same goal and more. However, the price tag is outrageous in young players/prospects and in long term overpriced contracts for a Santana or Bedard.


    Kuroda is widely considered to be better than any available free agent pitchers this winter. I’ve heard him described as being one notch less than DiceK. He is apparently an innings eater who showed good stats in a hitters park. Any Japanese player is a question mark however, as its never clear how their ability will translate to MLB competition.

    The really nice thing is that we can get him without sacrificing any valuable players or prospects.


    according to tony jacksn the dodgers reached a deal with kuroda

    The deal is pending results of a physical examination, which Kuroda took this morning at Centinela Hospital, but it’s done and believed to be worth between $36 million to $40 millon. Club officials aren’t commenting for now, but two sources with knowledge of the situation confirmed the deal within the past half hour. Expecting more details later in the day, but this is a huge pickup for the Dodgers. Kuroda will fall somewhere in the middle of the rotation, probably the third or fourth spot. Ned Colletti now has filled two of the club’s biggest holes (a starting pitcher and a CF) without giving up ANY of the Dodgers’ young players.


    I believe the players that AZ gave for Haren would be comparable to us giving up Kemp, Elbert, Young, and 3 other minor leaguers.


    I do believe “K” as he has been doubed would probably be a 3 man in most teams rotations and I would be pleased to see him anywhere in our rotation. That being said I would love to take a chance on Freddy Garcia. He would probably be as cheap or cheaper than “K” and Ned would still not have to give up any kids. Levan Hernandez is also a solid answer. But “K” should be the top target. With Loiza and some of the kids, we’ve got options this year we did not have last year if Schmidt breaks down or if Ned takes a shot at a Freddy Garcia or a Mark Prior.


    Yeah but I said I would do it if it didn’t touch our mlb team, obviously if Kemp was in the deal I wouldn’t do it.


    If we could pull off a major deal without giving up Kemp and/or Kershaw it might be worth it. Not only do teams want one of them, but both. Plus LaRoche. Loney and Brox are even mentioned. Outrageous!!


    Now we got to sure up the bully. Otsuka was not tendered a contract by the Rangers, and he would be fantastic addition. Otsuka, Broxton, Saito would make every game 6 innings.



    Looks like we’re done for the offseason. Unless Ned wants to ship off Pierre (unlikely) or Ethier (possible).


    Acquiring Kuroda also lets us take our time with Kershaw. He needs some time at AAA. Could come up mid season if Schmidt/Loaiza both bomb.


    That is our weakest link right now Tommy. Sorry!! I as a fan want the Dodgers to put the best team out there. That, unfortunately does not include Pierre. It is especially imperative now that the D-Backs have clearly improved.


    I also believe that Pierre would be much happier leading off and playing centerfield somewhere. I am not trashing the guy, but perhaps he is a better fit for another club.


    F@#% it, I hope Ned trades Pierre for Steve Sparks and some big league chew so we can give JP his proper Funeral. Mabey we can get Cardinal Mahoney to read him his last rights. Then he should call Billy Ashley and tell him he is getting a 2nd chance and start him in left field. Then Billy Ashley can be the topic of each and every post. JP has gotten his @#$ kicked so much his own family would not be able to indenify him in a police line up.


    I think you have to move pierre or ethier. If you keep both there’s going to be more catfighting. Obviously if you want to win pierre should be the one to go.


    Boy Ken Gurnick it at it again he almost makes it sound like KURODA is practically in our laps. I hope he doesn’t just bring our hope up to high. Jon Weisman of Dodger Thoughts believes Kemp may see more playing time than Ethier.


    The Cat fighting was a biproduct of Kent feeling the kids did not giving their best effort all the time or making the right choices. It was about a winning attitude or the lack there of. It was not about playing time.


    I honestly don’t care about the money being spent, it’s all about spending it wisely. This was money spent wisely and I’ll take a little extra money spent over trading the young core. Three years can be a little risky, but it’s far better than signing Silva at five years 50 million. Kuroda will be 33 in February, but he has the prospects of being a really good third/fourth starter. It wouldn’t take much to be an upgrade over Tomko and/or Hendrickson as a starter. I really like our rotation, especially with Billingsley a year older and will be a full time starter. While Arizona may have the best one-two punch in the N.L, we have the best rotation 1 through 4 for sure. Anything Schmidt or Loaiza or anybody else who will get spot starts throughout the season will hopefully be a bonus. I personally look forward to the first battle between Bills and Haren.


    I just read that Tony Jackson report****Thanks RIMIFI…. I’m hoping it’s all true…or these guys should be charged with purgury if it isn’t.***ON Kuroda


    Grady did not help the cat fighting clubhouse at all. Probably contributed to it with his indecisiveness.


    the cat fighting WAS about playing time, theres no doubt. i don’t think we should have another 4 OF’s/ three spots issue again, all the while playing the worst of the four every single day.


    We’re not that far apart Tommy. I do value your opinion even if I do not agree with it all the time. It is all subjective.


    Repko reminds be a lot of LoDuca, and thats a good thing. But has not stayed healthy in 2 years. He makes Nomar look like Cal Ripkin or Brett Favre. He plays so hard all the time that he kills his body.


    Repko plays to win the battle, not the war. He needs to tone it down just a tad to last an entiire season. I think he can be a pretty good player. Especially in the 4th outfielder role. He can play all three outfield positions.


    I can’t believe you are turning your back on LaDuca and Gagne. You were all buying the game over shirts when Gagne was here, you were all cheering for him, and now that he is not a dodger you all turn your back on him. I still apriciate all that Gagne did because he did it in a level playing field where most of the players were taking steroids and HGH. Just because you don’t see every name in the report does not mean that your favorite players were not taking performance enhancing drugs. I think the report just hit the tip of the Ice Berg. Also I can’t believe you guys are so exided about Kuroda. Do you guys remember a guy by the name of KASH ISHII. Where is he now. The Japan league is not the big leagues and just because they do good over ther does not mean they will pitch well here. I have yet to see a starting pitcher from Japan that has been consistingly good. They come over have maybe one good year or half a year and the batters figure them out and they go to become midiocre pitchers.


    I agree, in fact I like him better than Ethier or Pierre, but still do not think he can change who he is. He does not know how to tone it down.


    Kaz Ishii fell apart after he got dome cracked by that line drive. Sammy Saito has had 2 very good years. Saito was the best closer last year by far. Otsuka is pretty good and Sasaki for the Mariners was great closer and left on his own terms. Tomo Oka has had a good career as did Nomo. And if nobody has noticed, half of the pitchers in all of baseball are less than impressive. Its not exclusive to imports from Japan.


    Some of you guys may be too young to remember a Dodger by the name of Pete Reiser, He never could learn to tone it down and is more famous for running into the center field wall than he was for his brillant playing. I call Repko, Reiser’s reencarnation.


    JHall, Princess drew is exactly right. The day he opted out was a great day in Dodger in History. That was the only good thing Scott Boras did for us. We could start a blog just based on how over rated JD is. I do not know why Phillie is so mad at him, they should start a blog thanking JD for not signing with them.


    Eduardo – I don’t think any of us consider Kuroda anything other than our 4th SP, but for two years now we haven’t had a 4 OR 5 SP, so anyone that can carry around a 4.25 ERA, make all his starts and eat 180 innings is worth his weight on the team. I’d be happy if he was like a Nomo of his first two years.

    Did you guys see where Petitte admitted using HGH? What’s that say for Clemens now that we know the trainer didn’t lie (at least about Andy.)

    How ’bout Pierre and $$ for Thornton and a middling prospect? Would give us another lefty in the pen that can toss 60-70 games a year.


    This says it all about how Coletti has proven his worth to the team:

    “The Dodgers have now addressed their two biggest needs — a power bat and a legitimate starting pitcher — without trading any of their young talent.”

    God knows he tried in the past. But it looks like this time he has a much better chance at succeeding, AND we still have Kemp, Loney, Ethier, Billingsley, Broxton, Martin, LaRoche…DELICIOUS.

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