Diamond in the rough…
Sorry there was no post yesterday. I actually had to fly back to Los Angeles for the day and it was another reminder just how easy it is to get to LA from here. I was on a plane at 9:10, spent the day in Los Angeles and was back in my house in Glendale by 10:30 p.m. And apparently, a lot of you are starting to realize how close it is, as we had the largest crowd of the year so far here yesterday. From what I understand, it was hard to find a seat!
Same goes for Opening Day, which sold out yesterday when tickets for individual games went on sale. There’s definitely a vibe in the air that’s unlike any other year we’ve had in my recent memory.
In any event, with the day away, I hadn’t had the chance yet to give a shout out to Diamond Leung, the Riverside Press Enterprise beat writer who was laid off last week. Many of you probably read his blog daily and it’s a shame he’s no longer going to be on the beat, as he was really starting to develop a niche. I joked with him recently that despite being at the smallest paper on the beat, that it would be him who was going to solve all the problems of the newspaper industry with some of his new ways of aggregating information. In fact, I’m pretty sure he had a google search on the word ‘Dodgers,’ as he was always telling me about random stuff that I hadn’t even heard about yet.
He’ll certainly be missed not only personally around the stadium, but professionally and we wish him well in wherever his new path takes him. It’s a safe bet he’s going to be a success in whatever that is.
UPDATE:
Today’s lineup:
Furcal, SS
Hudson, 2B
Ethier, RF
Blake, 3B
Loretta, DH
Kemp, CF
Pierre, LF
Ausmus, C
Mientkiewicz, 1B
Kershaw, P
Inside the Dodgers 
Good morning Josh and ItD
I am leaving today after a wonderful stay at Camelback. The Stadium is fantastic. I am planning on making this an annual event. I noticed the huge crowd yesterday too. I am excited about opening day. It’s unbelievable that it is already sold out. I am also looking forward to the WBC finals held at Dodger Stadium. Everyone have a great day.
Good Sunday morning ITDland ~ I’m looking forward to a good game today with Kershaw pitching. Hope you all have a great day. GO DODGERS!!!!!!
Good morning all,
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Dodgers ~ White Sox, I ‘d like to see Kershaw bring it today.
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I hope evrybody is having a wonderful Sunday morning so far
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Beat the White Sox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Morning ITD readers and writers!!!! I hope you get your extra hour of sleep in sometime today, unless, of course, you are in Arizona. It looks like a great day for some Dodger baseball, and some NASCAR in my case. The lineup looks pretty good for a Spring Training game.
Thanks Josh for keeping us updated. I think once my kids are out of highschool, I will be able to have more flexibility to go to Spring Training and such. My live baseball watching consists of high school baseball, which has it’s fun aspects as well, watching all the potentials who will some day be gracing us with their talent in the mlb, and hopefully the Dodgers someday. However, we will be there opening week at Dodger Stadium and I can’t wait.
I can’t wait for Opening Day either. Everyone knows my stance on McRanch, so I won’t be visiting, but I’m glad everyone who didn’t ever get out to Vero are enjoying the short trip.
Here’s a different perspective on the large crowd at a Saturday ST game: All Dodgers weekend games at Vero last year were sold out as well, so it’s not uncommon for the Dodgers to have a full house on the weekend regardless of where they have ST. I found it even more amazing considering that the Dodgers had already announced they were leaving Vero and that they cut ST in Vero short by making that ridiculous trip to China. Maybe that actually helped to get people there for the last few games, who knows, but it was always packed at Holman Stadium on weekends, so I’m not surprised that McRanch actually was crowded on a Saturday. I just hope that the Dodgers present all sides of the story when they tell us how successful this ST was in ‘Zona because we all know there is no way they are going to say anything but that.
Hello My ITD Friends, hope you are all having a great Sunday. Hi Cy and welcome. Haven’t read you before but nice post. I too am very saddened by the move for Vero Beach. It was truely a baseball oasis, especially from us Eastern and Midwest Dodger faithful. I am thankful I got to experience it for as long as I did. It is somewhat of a miracle that the Dodgers didn’t leave for Arizona 15 to 20 years sooner. I fully understand the economic and fan base advantages of having ST in AZ and will visit in the future. Most of the old New York and Eastern Dodger fans are gone or very old now. A very golden era in baseball and Dodger history has passed and that is unfortunate. But time passes and things change. Time to make some new Dodger history and great memories. GO DODGERS!!!!
Martinez’s loss hurt Ramirez the most.
“He was comfortable in Boston for a time,” Martinez is quoted as saying in the book, in an excerpt provided by The Los Angeles Times. “I was his closest friend. But once I left the team, things didn’t seem to be the same. It wasn’t the same group of guys, the same feeling, and that influenced Manny a lot.”
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Bring back Pedro Ned and Frank that would be a great PR move and make Manny happy and heck he might be able to pitch. Even late innings if he cant start anymore. Dude was the best pitcher of our generation hands down.
Oops!! Move from Vero and for us Eastern and Midwest fans. LOL!!!
Jhall is in the ITD house!!!! How are you doing this afternoon?
Jhall ~ Have a great Sunday, sir. Not used to seeing you here in the daytime lol
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Jungar ~ during yesterday’s WBC game the announcers were saying Pedro would love to pitch for the Dodgers and, since he has already made lots of money, it wouldn’t cost much to give him a chance. It’s amazing to me, a pitcher with his talent, hasn’t even been offered an opportunity.
jungar – I was thinking that last night. I was wondering what some of you thought.
Hi Mom and Trumom!!! Doing well, thanks.. I need some Dodger baseball!!!! LOL!!!!
Cy ~ I agree with what you said about the crowds in Arizona. Up until yesterday, they were not very pleased with the attendance.
Hello Jungar!! Pedro might be worth a shot if it doesn’t cost much and none of the other pitchers in camp step up to hold down the 4th and 5th rotation slots. I also would welcome Maddux back.
Cy ~ I agree with what you said about the crowds in Arizona. Up until yesterday, they were not very pleased with the attendance.
Is there any set day to see Schmidt yet?
Not that I am aware of Nelly.
From the homepage ~
PHOENIX — Jason Schmidt, whose slow start has handicapped his bid for the fifth-starter job, could make his “A” game exhibition debut Monday or Tuesday, Dodgers pitching coach Rick Honeycutt said Saturday.
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I guess we wait and see if it happens.
Hmmmm!
Guess I am not holding my breath for anything from Schidt. LOL!!!
What else did we expect?!!
Well, the fact that he had soreness after the B game last week, and it was mentioned, doesn’t sound so promising. I am sure all the pitchers are going through the normal soreness, but how normal is his is the question.
It must be weird being in your own park and being he visiting team. GO DODGERS!!!!!!!
Andre being Andre – a nice at bat ending with a walk 🙂
Andre is one of the most underrated players in baseball IMO!!!
Nelly — confirmed about Schmidt pitching tomorrow.
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http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090308&content_id=3944118&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la
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Pedro would be nice if he could be had on the cheap. However I’m not sure he would make it through the season.
Well, you aren’t going to get an argument from me on that jhall – LOL!!!!
dcollins – thanks!!! Did you go to the Orchid Expo?
Andre, who? lol
LOL Trumom!!!
…not that we ever have anything to argue about 🙂
Very true Nelly!! :))
Nope. I had a tough night sleeping. My cough came back with vengance :(. Now I’m off to work.
….very funny trublu. You are beginning to sound like ramslover. However, if I must, I will explain again….. 🙂
😦 I am sorry dcollins…..that’s not good.
See ya Colly!! Have a great day.
Im sorry to hear about your cough coming back, dcollins. I know what you are going through.
Hope you get to feeling better soon Colly!!
LOL, Nellyjune!
…..Andre Everett Ethier is #16 and plays rightfield for the Dodgers. He is 6’2″, @210 lbs, and his birthday is Friday, April 10th, in which he will be turning 27. He bats left, throws left,and he IS one of the most underated players in the game. He has a crazy fan club called the Ethieraholics too 🙂
Oh, boy, can I join the club? I am an addict!!!
LOL!!!!
Hey everyone. I am getting ready to go grocery shopping, but was wondering if anyone knows if there’s rain delay in the game. The box score hasn’t updated in like 10 minuties and it says it’s cloudy there today.
Hi BlueGirl!! No rain delay.
Still 0-0, top 4th.
Kersh, 2 2/3. Looked/sounded pretty good. McDonald came in to get the final out in the 3rd.
Thanks, jhall. I wish the game was on the radio so I could listen in the car, but they don’t have many of the preseason ones on the radio. Have a great day everyone. Go Dodgers!
You are welcome BlueGirl. Have a great day also.
…….Meanwhile, back at the Ranch: D’s-Soxs, 0-0, bottom of 4. Kershaw was pulled with 2 outs in the bottom of the 3rd after landing odd on his follow through. Hope it’s nothing serious. McDonald replaced him. Speaking of McDonald, it seems that he’s not considered to be in the mix for the 5th spot in the rotation, if the article on the homepage is any guide. Big mistake, IMO… from his performance in the Classic, it looks like Pedro can still pitch. We should, at the least, inquire what Pedro’s looking for in a contract.
Hey bluecrewgirl!!! The gnats are playing the A’s are on the radio up here, but I guess that won’t do you much good 🙂
Andre walked again? I just got back from taking Mariya to practice.
Yes, he did!
Is Manny wearing 99 this year?
White Sox love JP! Keep your fingers crossed!
Ozzie wants him! Wouldn’t it be great if we could make his wish come true?!
Good question jungar.
Do the White Sox need a center or left fielder?
Yes, the White Sox need a fielder and Ozzie love Juan.
Loves Juan
Oh come on Ned……try it, please try it!!!!! Do the White Sox have anybody we would need? However, I would be willing just to give them a gift 🙂
I’d settle for the gift……..a garden gnome would look nice in Chicago.
C’mon Ned, get the White Sox on the phone. We don’t need to get anything in return. Just eat some of the contract and make Phew go away. For our sake as well as his.
It would be nice if they had a pitcher we could use, wouldn’t it?
Well, I think the announcers just blew yougnomewho’s chances. They just said JP could be standing behind the shortstop and couldn’t throw the guy out – LOL!!!! It’s sad when it’s not even us saying it 🙂
….not so good for McDonald today.
LMAO!!!!
Maybe Ned needs to put a gag order on all announcers not to say anything negative about yougnomewho, especially about his throwing arm…….not good trait bait talk 🙂
Didn’t know the game’s free on the Dodgers’ site today. Yay for free Dodger baseball!
Waiting for the US-VEN game coming up at 5. I’d thought Venezuela would’ve been a team to watch out for, and they did good against Italy, but they didn’t do so good in their 2 exhibitions against MLB ST teams, and that was only 3 innings of Big Leaguers.
Wonder which team’s gonna show up today for them. I have confidence in the US, though. They played a hell of a game against Canada, and with Captain Russ, Morneau, Jason Bay, and ol’ reliable Matt Stairs, they’re not exactly slouches. Russ almost killed US every time he was up, heheh.
Good Afternoon nsblues!!!! The USA is looking pretty good. How about Korea defeating China 14-0 and now Korea is facing Japan. That should be a good matchup.
……middle relief pitching seems to certainly be an issue, doesn’t it?
Yeah, Korea kinda has a bone to pick over the way the last WBC ended up, with Korea having a 6-1 record AND having beat Japan twice in head-to-head competition previous. I like Japan too, though.
On ESPN, Kruk was going on and on about how he didn’t like the bat flips and post-HR arm raising by the Koreans. It’s a different culture there, and they’ll learn quick if they ever make it to the MLB. But this is the WORLD Baseball Classic, and asking them to tone down how they express the game would be like taking away the Thundersticks in Tokyo… the point is that Baseball is a WORLD game, and it’s almost an advantage to us if we ended up playing them, and they’re bat-flipping on a HR in the 3rd inning.
Nellly, I don’t know what I was thinking. the game was on the radio. I forgot that what shows as playing on the radio on their website doesn’t always match what’s on the regular radio, since you can’t listen to the games online on KABC. When I was listening on the way home, they were chanting bring back Beimel. I don’t know why they haven’t resigned him. They should. Our pen sucks so far.
I agree that the pen has been a bit ragged so far, but I think it is a product of what has been run out there so far. Brox is with Team USA, Kuo is being treated with kid gloves, Wade is so (that might hurt), and they are trying to make Troncoso a starter. The pieces that been imploding are not really guys that will be with the club once the season starts save Guillermo Mota and I’m still confused by his signing. Weaver has pitched well enough and he is almost certain to be a swing guy in the pen, so it actually is not as bad as it seems (it has seemed bad) because we are really seeing the bottom of the barrell out there right now.
red pen ~ Wade is sore
I agree we are seeing the bottom of the barrell right now with those players missing and I hope Weaver can do well out of the pen, but I still think the pen is thin if injuries happen and they could definitely use Beimel and since he hasn’t been signed yet, they can probably resign him for a good price.
Our Starting Pitchers are looking good though, and it will be interesting to see Schmidt pitch tomorrow. It is still spring training, and that is what spring training is for…getting everyone (especially pitchers) the time needed to get back into the swing of things.
I agree the starters are looking very good so far. I am glad to see Weaver getting another shot, even if not as a starter. I always liked him when he was a Dodger before. I hope Kershaw is ok. Did you hear anything about him?
I haven’t heard about Kershaw, and I didn’t see anything written other than how well he pitched. It looks like Schmidt is going to pitch one inning tomorrow and Vargas, Milton and Threets to follow.
Someone had mentioned that he got taken out when he pulled up kind of funny after his delivery, but it mustn’t have been anything much, so that’s good.
Yea – I did see that, but it wasn’t mentioned in the recap of the game, so I am “assuming” everything is okay.
Good evening ITD,Dodgerfaithful
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I managed to see 5 innings of today’s game. Kershaw had a good outing, way to go Clayton. I didn’t see much of McDonald, but it sounds like he had a rough time today??
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Schmidt tommorrow I guess, I hope we can get some intensity out of some of our arms this spring. Every little thing will be okay, I’m sure.
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Dodgers ~ Rangers, tommorrow…. We are rolling along towards opening day.
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Bring the Ring to L.A. in 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Evening Dodger4life!!! USA is doing well so far, but Venezuela isn’t giving up just yet. It looks like pitching on both sides is falling apart somewhat.
GO U.S.A.!!!!!!!! Good evening Nelly 🙂
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, A-Rod’s your catastrophic Spring Training injury…how does Pierre look with a third baseman’s glove? Ned, don’t even THINK about trading DeWitt to NY.
JP in New York – LMAO!!!!!
excuse me…….yougnomewho in New York – LMAO!!!!!!!
No, don’t trade DeWitt to New York. That would be bad 😦
Brox shuts them down!!!!!
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Go U.S.A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brox did a fabulous job!!! Can’t wait for him to come back to the Dodgers 🙂
Maybe the Yankees should had keep Betamit and why not moving Nady to 3rd baseman or Tex? Since they do have log jam in the OF. I don’t know if they want to sacrifice Tex at 3rd despite the ugly .811 fpct and has more experiences at 3rd than Nady 3 games with SD.
LF Damon
CF Cabrera
RF Swisher/Nady
1b Teixeira/Nady/Swisher
2b Cano
SS Jeter
3b Nady/Teixiera
DH Matsui
C Posada
Maybe they used Cody Ransom hahahahaha still remember when he booted that ball against us and I surely know the Giants fans remember him.
GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damn that USA game still going on? Wow Australia tied it up 7-7.
Stat Player Total
AVG A. Dunn 1.000
HR K. Youkilis 1
RBI B. McCann 3
R K. Youkilis 3
SB S. Shields
W L. Hawkins 1
SV J. Putz 1
IP J. Peavy 3.0
ERA S. Victorino
This look weird lol
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/worldbaseball/usa
Braun just gone deep making it 15-5 USA.
jhall – where are you now? LOL!!!!
GO USA!!!!!
Are we talking Yankee baseball? Boo, they are the enemy who cares who plays 3b for them….maybe billy crystal can suit up again!!! LOL..
As for Mark Sweeney I read 6…the guy with the numbers story and I have a quick one about Sweeney at last years ST…I got him for an autograph as he was leaving the batting cages in Vero and walking to another field and he stopped for me and my friends and signed. He was by far the most personable player that I encountered, he **** chatted and joked with us for a few moments and went on his way…He is not full of himself and he really appreciates the fans…So I think the Dodgers made a wise decision to bring him aboard..plus he can relate with the younger players….
Elbert got a little roughed up, but I am hoping that he can get it together and make the BP…
I bet JP wouldn’t had done that.
Good Evening Ramslover!!! I, too, am glad Sweeney gets to stay on board with the Dodgers. Out of the players that struggled last year, I felt pretty bad for him at times. I was more upset with Joe for putting him through it than anything. He never shrugged off the fans, acted like he didn’t care or seemed to feel entitled to things like the others who struggled last season.
Hey Nelly how did you do in auto racing? I had both Busch, Stewart and Sorenson starting. I wish I had played Gordon, Vickers and Allmendinger. Sorenson was the only person on my roster that had less than 300 laps completed.
Oh man I could had 363 points and tied with the most points this week instead of 273.
oops make that tied for 2nd places.
Yanks’ll be fine, they have Angel Berroa >:)
Nice to see the US clinch the second round, great inning by Brox tonight. I might’ve been more sympathetic to Venezuela if they didn’t have Andres Galarraga as a manager. I hated that guy, heheheh. I respected him, but I hated to see him in the other dugout.
I forgot all about Berroa but I doubt he haven’t played a single game at 3rd in his career. Berroa hitting .500 with 2 homeruns and 5 rbi’s.
I was going to say where is Ensberg but I see he’s in the TB organization.
Good morning ITD
Back in California again. My stay in Glendale was fantastic. I can’t believe how much fun ST was. I’m not sure why all the negativity about Camelback Ranch. I went to a total of 3 games there: Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. The two weekday games were not sold out but neither are the regular season day games at Dodger Stadium during the weekday so it didn’t surprise me at Camelback. No children since they have school. Many of the Dodger fans can’t come out because of work commitments. There are certain games they call prime games and Saturday was one. Many fans weren’t sure what to expect and I’m sure for a new facility, the turnout wasn’t unexpected. I myself consider the stadium absolutely breathtaking. My experience was 100% from batting practice to the games themselves. It’s a matter of figuring things out from where to stay, what time to get to Camelback, what to do before and after the games. It is the beginning of a new tradition. I have nothing to compare it to since I never made it to Vero Beaach so that makes a difference. I found the players very accessible. I took ten balls and had all of them signed. I usually want one signature per ball but I got so many I had to relegate a ball to old timers, pitchers, minor league, etc, with certain players such as the hard to get ones such as Manny (yes, I actually was super lucky and got a Manny ball: look at my blog to see a picture of it http://catlovesthedodgers.mlblogs.com.) Raffy Furcal, Kuo. I got Repko, Xavier Paul, Mitch Jones, Juan Pierre. It would be a shorter list of who I didn’t get. It was awesome actually talking to some of the players especially Ausmus and Schmidt. I have to give Jason a lot of credit. He is always at practice. Even during the regular season he was warming up just as he is at ST, unlike others ie Penny, who just simply disappeared. He signed many autographs. Many people would say, why not sign, he gets paid enough, but that doesn’t follow, some players do not sign. One of the players who is the most gracious about signing is Matt Kemp who is absolutely the best. He is probably the nicest, most accessible. He will stop and talk to you as a reguular guy would. He is very unaffected by it all so don’t believe what you read. Another is our Andre. Another is James Loney who will sign. Those are the top three. Others who will sign are Mark Loretta, Casey Blake, Danny Ardoin, Clayton Kershaw, James MacDonald, the minor leaguers. A bit difficult are Joe Torre, Maury Wills, Don Mattingly. The very hardest is Manny. Be prepared to be pushed, shoved, stepped on to get anywhere near him. I would love to go back this ST but I suppose the WBC is coming up in a couple of weeks, and then opening day will be here before you know it. Unfortunately I have to work to support my Dodger habits, so it does cut into my time. Anyone who is thinking about going to ST, do it. You won’t regret it.
oops, http://catlovesthedodgers.mlblogs.com
Good morning ITDland ~ Hope everyone has a great Monday. Looking forward to seeing how Jason pitches today. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for him and hope he makes it back.
Good Morning ITD readers and writers!!!!!
Shad – I am so sorry I didn’t answer you question last night about my NASCAR day. I had horrible connections issues last night on my computer. I woke up this morning and everything was fine. Anyhow, I have two teams (4 drivers each, with two subs if needed). My first team has Denny Hamilin (my favorite), Ryan Newman, Kasey Kahne and David Gilliland. I won yesterday with that team thanks to Kasey Kahne and Denny for remaining on the lead lap after that stupid caution. I am in second place in that league with a 3-1 record (3rd in oveall points). My second team has Kyle Busch (2nd favorite), Casey Mears, David Ragan and normally Regan Smith, but he didn’t race, so I had to go with Joe Nemecheck. That team lost, and I am in 6th place, both in head to head and overall points with that team at 1-3 record.
Good morning ITD’ers!
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The latest from the rumor mill…
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http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/94610-teahen-grudzielanek-in-yankees-future
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DeMitt for middle relief I’m not for. If you could get a top notch starting pitcher then maybe, but not for a middle reliever.
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As was chanted yesterday at the Ranch… Sign Beimel!
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I hope everyone has a great day!!
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Go Blue!!
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Bring the Ring to LA in 2009!!!
Dcollins ~ Dodgers said they were interested in Beimel only if his asking price comes down. Can’t see paying millions for someone who throws to a few batters. I don’t think I’d get rid of DeWitt for a middle reliever, either.
Good Morning ITD, Dodgerfaithful,
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I am with ya dcollins that, seems a little whack.
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Rangers today, I too would like to Schmidt have a good outing. James is the veteren in the infield today, with Kemp, Repko, and X paul in the outfield for starters.
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Bring the ring to L.A. in 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Manny coming to the line – up soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO USA!!!! nice win!!!! also I loved listening to the Dodger game in the car and hearing the chant BRING BACK BEIMEL… Common Colletti go get him…
Goooooood morning, ITD!!!
Bullpen issues:
1 – OK, this is water under the bridge, but Juan Cruz signed a 2-year deal for $6 million and we are paying Mota $2.35 million for 1 year. I’ll join the others who normally blast the hell out of Colletti by saying he’s done a good job this offseason with the roster, given the players who were available. But the bullpen is an exception. All he’s signed for the pen are everyone else’s rejects and the usual reclaimation projects, which aren’t a bad idea as long as they are NRIs or minor league deals. But Cruz is a damned good pitcher, signed at a discount by a team going nowhere and only would have cost us a second-round pick.
2 – I read a while back that while still interested in playing, Pedro had no intention of discounting himself to do so. That may have changed, who knows?
3 – Dennys Reyes signed a 2-year deal for $3 million, and he’s comparable to Beimel. If he’s asking for somewhere around that, we should be signing him. He’s not as good as Cruz, but I’ll bet he’s better than Mota.
4 – Trading DeWitt for middle relief sounds like more of that NY dung that we have to sift through occasionally. At least I hope so.
Dodgereric ~ Good morning. I agree with what you are saying. I think before the season starts, we are going to get a pitcher and, hopefully just for cash and not a trade.
Good Morning Dodgereric!!!!! All great points as usual. It was rumored over the weekend that Pedro Martinez wants to play for the Dodgers. How do you feel about him?
If the story’s coming from NY, its just New Yorkers pipedreaming that they’ll get DeWitt for next to nothing like people here pipedream about trading Pierre for Peavy. Besides that, Hudson’s only a years rental, then DeWitt takes over at second. You don’t give up a everyday [cheap] starter for middle relief.
I agree E :-)……New Thread
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!